The Over-Under?

[doss darwin]

Sadly, the over and under combination was considered illegal in the US at that time and was not included in the original or updates versions of the book. Neither were several other speed bag combinations thought illegal or illogical at the time. Those who practiced it apparently escaped to the underground speed bag clubs down under in Australia. I could easily add another 10-12 pages of information about technique variations or advanced combinations I've learned in the past 3 years. (some of which I still cannot do justice too... )

I knew I should have taken that four year teaching job in Sydney back in the mid '70's. Another verse in my own road not taken. Had I gone, I might fully understand the Aussie style of bagging which Deano demonstrates so beautifully.

if you had gone down there then you may not have returned--i am pretty sure i would have stayed had i gone at that time--grins dd

[Speedbag]

if you had gone down there then you may not have returned--i am pretty sure i would have stayed had i gone at that time--grins dd

Probably true. During those days (1973-75) there were always opportunities to go and intern or teach in various countries. Memphis State University would sponsor students (grad level) or higher, as well as full time teachers from other countries to come and teach in the Memphis and Shelby County School districts around western Tennessee. We had several grad students in my area (special educ) from other countries that were teaching full time in Memphis as part of course work for masters and doctoral degrees.

There were always flyers for MSU education majors to go to Australia, and sometimes England, to teach through an exchange program. the schools pay your travel and put you up in a dorm or apartment. Seems like I remember it had to be a 4 year commitment to teach in certain areas. I really considered it, for the travel and experience, but my own vocational goals at the time were not to be a classroom teacher at the junior high or high school level.

so no go.

[ebozyn]

AK

That is interesting... When Deano is striking the bag with his elbow moving away from his body (outward elbow) his elbow drops down to make way for the strike with the backside of his fist. And with inward moving side strikes, he catches the bag straight on with his knuckles, with a hook punch.


I've watched Deano's vids a quite a few times. But this video is great because it's right over his shoulder you kinda get the Deano point of view of the action.

very cool vid.

[ebozyn]

I'll have to practice a little more Deano style side punches, Now that it has clicked in my head of what he is actually doing.

I'll have to study Deano's Videos alot more though.

[Speedbag]

AK

That is interesting... When Deano is striking the bag with his elbow moving away from his body (outward elbow) his elbow drops down to make way for the strike with the backside of his fist. And with inward moving side strikes, he catches the bag straight on with his knuckles, with a hook punch.


I've watched Deano's vids a quite a few times. But this video is great because it's right over his shoulder you kinda get the Deano point of view of the action.

very cool vid.

Yes, I wish you could have been there when he came to the first gathering. We all spent a lot of time watching and shooting video of him. I got a bunch of personal video I shot from all angles to analyze, and he sent me some video clips he made when he got home, explaining it a bit more from his point of view. I've watched a lot of him in slow motion - not only to understand how he does it, but also to figure out how to write it down and account for the variations.

I've down that with a lot of your video's too, by the way....

[ebozyn]

Yes, I wish you could have been there when he came to the first gathering. We all spent a lot of time watching and shooting video of him. I got a bunch of personal video I shot from all angles to analyze, and he sent me some video clips he made when he got home, explaining it a bit more from his point of view. I've watched a lot of him in slow motion - not only to understand how he does it, but also to figure out how to write it down and account for the variations.

I would have liked to have been there. I would be all over the place trading combos, watching and learning.

[Speedbag]

I would have liked to have been there. I would be all over the place trading combos, watching and learning.

Which is what everybody does also. All day, all night until the police come and ask us to stop at 2 or 3am. Happens every year.

[ebozyn]

Which is what everybody does also. All day, all night until the police come and ask us to stop at 2 or 3am. Happens every year.

Sounds like a lot of sore shoulders. But tons of fun.

[ebozyn]

AK... For writing fist strikes down do you have to break the fist up into 4 parts?

Say

1. front,
2. back,
3. pinky side, and
4. thumb side?

Some (who am i foolin'. Tons of combos from Pooler hehe) , i had to break down in slow mo, and write them out on paper for practice.

But that's how i came up with some of my own combos and moves.

[Speedbag]

AK... For writing fist strikes down do you have to break the fist up into 4 parts?

Say

1. front,
2. back,
3. pinky side, and
4. thumb side?

Some combos from Pooler, i had to break down in slow mo, and write them out on paper for practice.

Here are the hand areas I emphasize

I could answer the original question YES or NO. (#2 - Back, not shown in my book, except as back fist in chapter 12, martial arts).

In my system the hands hit the bag with the palms almost always facing the floor. The rare exception is the "hammer fist" which hits the pinkie side of the hand and the palm facing sideways or vertical to the bag and the elbow down. It is the fist position used in the Downward Double and Triple strike, and the Out-Down four way.

That various fist positions used by Deano and a few others I have seen are challenging to write because the same technique name could be used but the fist position is different. For instance, in his Outward Triple Elbow Strike, (O-TES), as noted earlier, his lead arm (Elbow-fist) hits completely different than the way I show it in the book or video. His elbow hits, drops down and the bag rebounds into the back of his fist, and then the second fist (third part of the triple) hits as a hook punch, which is really a Front Straight Punch position contact, but from the side of the bag with a different body motion if you really do the hook as it is supposed to be done. Now, the variations are (1) elbow drops down, (2) bag hits back of lead hand, (3) second fist hits side of bag, (4) ending position (directly after second fist hits) has the lead arm (elbow) pointing down. Basically his lead forearm ends up vertical, not parallel to floor.

So, If this is still an Outward-Triple Elbow Strike, my abbreviation is:

..L-L \ R
(O-TES)
..e-f \ f

Now, how can that abbreviation account for variations 1,2 and 3 noted above?? I do that technique and Deano does that technique, and we both do them totally different. How can I account for his variations (I'm giving me [my elbow position and bag contacts] the benefit of creative license... since I don't think he has tried to write his down)

If I wrote this to include HIS modifications, I would write it with liner notes somehow indicating

..L-L \ R
(O-TES)
..e-f \ f

Lead elbow (e) drops down
Lead fist (f), back of fist hits bag
Second fist (f) is hook punch.

That allows me to understand it but to type or write that down as an exercise would be taxing because I would have to come up with an abbreviation to account for his contacts and positional variations.

Now, for me variation # (4) ending position (directly after second fist hits) has the lead arm (elbow) pointing down. Basically the forearm is vertical, not parallel to floor. This creates some strong reasons for me NOT to teach this method or his variations to a new bagger or beginner as "the way to do it".

His variations cause major problems (for me anyway) in doing anything else OFF these techniques. Not to get too technical but there are 18 other techniques you can go to directly after this technique, but almost every one of them demands that the (1) lead fist or (2) second fist will pass through to the back or some other area of the bag, and dropping the lead elbow makes this much more difficult. I won't say impossible, because Skunk hits at warp speed with low elbows pushing his hands all around the bag, but most people will never link that lead fist anywhere with the elbow pointing to the floor. It is just easier to do with the forearm parallel and palm facing down.

And how do you link off the hook punch? (3rd contact surface in his method). Where does it go around the bag?

This is not to belittle his style, because it really is beautiful, very different from what I've seen, and I can't do it anyway like he can.

I have always known there are variations of fist orders and contact positions, some of which I considered putting in the book - but it would have pushed page counts and printing costs, as well as confuse some people. Also, there is really no quick way to show those variations in the technique abbreviation. For instance, I show the Front Double Punch as either (A) two Front Circle Punches [FCP+FCP = FDP] or (b) Front Circle Punch and Front Straight Punch [FCP+FSP=FDP] The abbreviation for either is the same, but I do address why you would use one fist position over the other. However, you can also do the FDP with a FSP+FSP, or FSP+FCP, ....and you can do this either straight into the bag or from a criss cross arm position (), and yes it's cool to use those variations, but are they really functional for basic speed bagging? And they don't change the FDP abbreviation. The Two fist positions are the most common and the easiest and most functional for linking off to other techniques. By the way, look closely at the full front deano video and you will see him do a few criss cross front double punches. Think of Speedbagscissors hands "X". Make an "X" with your arms in front of your chest and move them out to their home position. the lead fist hits, the second hits after one rebound, no problem. Cool.

Likewise, I have always known you can do a Reverse Single Punch (RSP) or (RDP) by hitting the back of the hands on the rear panel of the bag. Dr. Schroeder call this "the rocking chair", but I decided to drop it because I could not see any purpose to have a beginner trying to learn the reverse punches, linking to them and from them, with this weird hand and elbow position. But it is possible, just not practical for beginners to waste time on.

Anyway, not sure that answers your question.

[Zaza]

I would have liked to have been there. I would be all over the place trading combos, watching and learning.

Hope you can make it to the next one in July!