Reverse-Reverse Fist Roll?

[ebozyn]

I was Practicing Various Fist Rolls, and did this... I'm not sure what it's called, but i've Been calling it a "Reverse - Reverse Fist Roll" thing. I'm sure someone Does this already I don't remember seeing it, but i would Guess that billymack, and, or Skunk do this Too.
anyway i thought it looked sort of cool so i shot this Video So i could Post It.
It's worth a look i guess.

0:23 Reverse - Reverse Fist Roll
0:38 Reverse - Reverse Fist Roll

Thank You For Watching.

[ebozyn]

I Guess This Move Could Be A Bit Cooler, if Placed Just So in the Right Combo.

Bag On!

[paranday]

-a-m-a-z-i-n-g-

[juxt]

the backwards reverse fist roll. pretty good man. G-town is a maestro of the fist roll too, i seen him doing that at s.b.2011.

[MsDeville]

Very impressive moves

the backwards reverse fist roll. pretty good man. G-town is a maestro of the fist roll too, i seen him doing that at s.b.2011.

YUP! I saw it too. And I even took footage of this feat! I think it's in the "SB II, Day One" video I posted on You Tube. Here's the link, with Louis at the 1:41 mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QXMyI4dcRY

It's a VERY impressive punch. Looks so easy, and yet, I have been unable to do it. G-Town (Louis) blew us away at SB II with this punch.

Is there ANY punch that you can't do, ebo?

Congrats on mastering these front reverse/backside reverse/backside forward... I don't think there is an official name for it yet...

[novaspeedbagger]

Great controll!

Excellent control with a very tough technique/Combo! At least tough for me!

the backwards reverse fist roll. pretty good man. G-town is a maestro of the fist roll too, i seen him doing that at s.b.2011.

No doubt about Juxt, G-town is quite smooth with that upward front strike coming of other combo's. Flow's right into it seamlessly! As G-Town would say "That's what's up!"

And Juxt, you're the Maestro of the Vert board! I've got one up now in my basement and am still trying to develop some competency on it. Watching Ms. D's Clip Reminded me how crazy good you are on the Vert!

YUP! I saw it too. And I even took footage of this feat! I think it's in the "SB II, Day One" video I posted on You Tube. Here's the link, with Louis at the 1:41 mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QXMyI4dcRY

It's a VERY impressive punch. Looks so easy, and yet, I have been unable to do it. G-Town (Louis) blew us away at SB II with this punch.

Dee, thanks for the trip down memory lane! Just when I forgot about some of that weekend you gifted us all with a little flashback! Thanks!

[Zaza]

I love it! You have a control over the bag that is to be revered....always a pleasure to watch.

[Speedbag]

YUP! I saw it too. And I even took footage of this feat! I think it's in the "SB II, Day One" video I posted on You Tube. Here's the link, with Louis at the 1:41 mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QXMyI4dcRY

It's a VERY impressive punch. Looks so easy, and yet, I have been unable to do it. G-Town (Louis) blew us away at SB II with this punch.

Is there ANY punch that you can't do, ebo?

Congrats on mastering these front reverse/backside reverse/backside forward...

I don't think there is an official name for it yet...

Well, IF the Speed Bag Bible is the "official" source for naming or categorizing speed bag skills (Big IF there...) - and I came out with an updated "Second" edition, then thanks to this forum and various members I would expand the advanced chapter in various places.

For the purpose of this discussion, lets examing fist rolling:

in every instance of Fist Rolling that I had seen the punchers had universally rolled the fists so the "upper fist" hits into the bag, meaning the fist rolling "over the other" makes contact. This makes the fists aways roll in the same direction during the roll, (either in Front or behind the bag). When the puncher "reverses the normal direction of the fists" in the roll, which I have NEVER SEEN DONE before 2010 ( and i've seen a fair amount of rolling in my day, as has my buddy James Caher and Showtime Johnny Pal...) I consider this a more advanced variation of fist rolling, bringing the fist that will contact the bag in an Upward angle, rolling under the other fist. The difficulty of this move is because the upward moving fist hits the bag and moves upward, into the arc of the rebounding bag, and is often caught by the bag (least it is for me...) and the difficulting is getting that contact fist up and out of the way (back toward chest) to roll under the other fist now coming up.

So, I see this as an advanced variation or either Front (front of bag) or Reverse (back of bag) First Rolling, and here is how I would address that. (your first peek into what I have already been working on .....for a while)

"Advanced Front Fist Rolling" section (currently chapter 10, pg 123)

Here I would add the variation of reversing the fist movement within the Front Roll. I would add a section to include Reverse Front Fist Rolling [ symbol: (R-Froll) : and I would explain what it is.

Now for the hard part, (besides doing it..) I also have to come up with a way to write it, for either personal use of practice exercise for others. IF all you are doing is a "Reverse Front Fist Roll" then I could write it as R-Froll x5.... meaning the fists start and end going in the same direction, but what I am writing a Front Fist Roll where the fists continually changes direction in a non-stop Roll. Say 20 continuous punches that change directions two or three times. How do I indicate that?

Makes things a little more difficult, doesn't it.... ( I already have a solution )

For Reversing the Fist of a normal Reverse Fist Roll behind the bag:

Advanced Reverse Fist Rolling & Linking: (Chapter 10, page 129)

Here I would add the same advanced variation. Strange as it may sound, I would call it what it is: Reverse Reverse Fist Rolling. the "normal" Reverse Fist Roll has the abbreviation R-Roll and for this I would use R-Rroll (same the the R-Froll) and explain the variation of fist movement.

Again the same problem of writing and extended Fist Roll of say 10-15 punches with numerous direction changes. (same fix works here as for the Front Roll)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For those who actually read and follow the Speed Bag Bible (not just "have it" but really learn by watching others....) I will give you some insight into how this work - for understanding how to write these things down [ and how I look at doing that...] is an important part of my system and goes back to my core makeup of writing exercises. Three lines over each other.

Every technique has a name and abbreviation as the main line and fist order of hitting over the top.

top: R-L-R-L-R
mid: (F-Roll) or (F-Roll)x5
Bot: * empty

This does NOT tell you which direction the fists are moving, and you would assume they are always moving in the same way, but they are now constantly changing direction. how will YOU know when to change? ugh oh....

I could do this:

F-Rollx5 ' R-Frollx5 ' F-Rollx 5.....etc and it works. But there is also another way to indicate a fist direction change, but it involves indicating each fist in the roll. (this will make it longer but more exact)

Remember, the fist hitting the bag will now come from either "over (O) the other or "Under (U) the other, and I can use that O or U under the fist to indicate that


R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L
(F-Roll)x10
0-0-0-u-u-u-0-0-0-u-u-u (Direction of fist to bag)

Remember, I am only trying to be able to write down what I did, or what I want to do for practice, so I can use short cuts if I know what they mean.
I know I'm F-Rolling so:


R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L
0-0-0-u-u-u-0-0-0-u-u-u

Same thing works for Reverse Fist Rolling. but to write a combination Front to Reverse, I have allow for the two rebounds in between.
{ I am assuming the fists moving "over" the other will hit and pass throught. this is easier than the "under" fist hitting and going behind...IMO}


R-L-R-L-R-L-R-L.......R-L-R-L-R
(F-Roll)x10.....(R-Roll)x5
0-0-0-u-u-u-0-0..' '..0-0-u-u-0

( in the above example, the ..... are only spacers due to HTML web spacing, sorry)

This is pretty much the first time I have had to account for this, for in the normal flow of speed bag combinations the elbows and fists move in pretty much the same established patterns. We also see this in the Advanced "upward" elbow striking motion, introduced some time last year. That is another story in itself.

This will work for self written exercises, and for my own purposes I add an arrow in the upper line to indicate which direction the fist came from before the contact and also the direction after the contact. I do with arrows you see in the pictures below.
This helps me plan when to change direction, and I will work on 3 punches in one direction change for 3..., then to four then five. That is how I practice and it has always worked for me. How I wish I would have started on a few of these earlier, as my 40+ years of hand experience is finding it very difficult to accept these changes. Back to school......

sorry for the length of post, but as you see, explaining all of this is often not so easy when a punch is worth a thousand words.

[novaspeedbagger]

I get it Alan!

The only problem is that I hardly ever think about using the upward rolling action. Maybe reading every word of your post helped ingrain it into my mind permanently.

In the past I never thought of the 4 way elbows much until I watched so many of them done at Speed bag III.

Well here it goes. Another 10,000 or so punches in upward Reverse and Rear upward Reverse action......

I think it is written like this:
Front Fist Rolling only:
o'o'o'o'o'u'u'u'o'o'o'o'o'o'u'u'u'o'o'o'o'o' Nooooooooooo!!!!!!

Just kidding, awesome job creating the extension in your existing speed bag language!

[Johnny O]

Very Impressive

Eboyzn, just unbelieveable bag control.

Alan, thanks for the explanation. When I try to duplicate the combinations that guys post on the forum, I write out the combo using your short hand. I hang this paper in front of my board just like in your photo above and practice. Thanks for taking the time to do this, I know everyone appriciates it.

Johnny O

[Biff]

Another great vid, ebozyn. Smoooooth. You guys have AK revising the Bible and now I'll never master all that shorthand notation (not to mention all these new techniques and combos).

Keep at it. Love your work.

[Speedbag]

The only problem is that I hardly ever think about using the upward rolling action. Maybe reading every word of your post helped ingrain it into my mind permanently.

In the past I never thought of the 4 way elbows much until I watched so many of them done at Speed bag III.

Well here it goes. Another 10,000 or so punches in upward Reverse and Rear upward Reverse action......

I think it is written like this:
Front Fist Rolling only:
o'o'o'o'o'u'u'u'o'o'o'o'o'o'u'u'u'o'o'o'o'o' Nooooooooooo!!!!!!

Just kidding, awesome job creating the extension in your existing speed bag language!

Hey Nova

Yes, you can write it like that if it makes sense to you.

Here is how I see it: Punching the speed bag can be pretty simple or can get pretty complicated. In trying to develop a system to bring a legitimate and understandable "written order to that chaos" I wanted a method that could at least be sensible for the easier, more common movements, and also adaptable for the more complex combinations.


Obviously There are various ways to write Speed Bag combinations and the key is to have a relatively quick and easy system that can be used for Two audiences. (1) You [yourself] and (2) Everybody else.

I bet many folks scribble down punching notes that makes sense to themselves but need serious explanation to be used by others. I do this myself, and speed bag combo's I write for myself may be "shortcut" versions of what I would put down for the larger audience.

For your combo I would add the Arm Notations, as well as increase the spacing before and after the "rebound" symbol ' Your method would mean the Arm would be underneath. Front Fist Rolling only:


o ' o ' o ' o ' o ' u ' o
R...L..R...L...R..L...R

( In my method I always put the fist or arm on the top line, but that's just me...)

Of course, this may not show up right due to web spacing and browser settings. It is very difficult to write more multi-line combo's and get them to line up vertically in the correct fashion in web browser. that is why I add .... and extra annoying parts - to get the spacing correct.

R ' L ' R ' L ' R ' L ' R ' L ' R
o...o..o...o...o..u...u...u...o

I also like to add the direction arrow to help indicate which direction the fist is going. to the right is the normal direction, to the left is the "reverse" direction. note in the picture below. You will see Two white arrows over certain "R" Right fists, (circled in Red) one going right one going left. This indicates that fist hits the bag from one direction, then goes back the other way after the contact. This is necessary because we initiate the reverse motion after a fist hits. I prefer to start the reverse rotation from an normal punch coming "over" the other, but you can do it either way, as long as you know what you have written. But if you are writing this for "someone else....", it helps to show where the change of fist direction occurs. Sure, rather ticky and detailed, but I think some of these advanced combo's demand it.

[ebozyn]

It's Really Fun to work out a Combo Strike by Strike, and write it down. I have Two notebooks that have what would probably look like chicken scratchings to someone else. but when i look at it it's beautiful movements.
haha sounds funny, but it is like a form of dance i guess, but mostly above the waist. the opposite of riverdance. hahaha

I have been writing Combos Down even before i owned a speed bag. i learned some of the shorthand from this forum, which would be your shorthand alan. but before i had the speed bag bible. i was writing combos down, and naming moves, and combos, so it's like half Your style of writing shorthand and half crap i came up with. but like you were saying, if it works for you...

but there is something really great about writing it all down, and taking your notebook to your platform , and going through the combos strike by strike.

i find it enjoyable.

Hey Nova

Yes, you can write it like that if it makes sense to you.

Here is how I see it: Punching the speed bag can be pretty simple or can get pretty complicated. In trying to develop a system to bring a legitimate and understandable "written order to that chaos" I wanted a method that could at least be sensible for the easier, more common movements, and also adaptable for the more complex combinations.


Obviously There are various ways to write Speed Bag combinations and the key is to have a relatively quick and easy system that can be used for Two audiences. (1) You [yourself] and (2) Everybody else.

I bet many folks scribble down punching notes that makes sense to themselves but need serious explanation to be used by others. I do this myself, and speed bag combo's I write for myself may be "shortcut" versions of what I would put down for the larger audience.

For your combo I would add the Arm Notations, as well as increase the spacing before and after the "rebound" symbol ' Your method would mean the Arm would be underneath. Front Fist Rolling only:


o ' o ' o ' o ' o ' u ' o
R...L..R...L...R..L...R

( In my method I always put the fist or arm on the top line, but that's just me...)

Of course, this may not show up right due to web spacing and browser settings. It is very difficult to write more multi-line combo's and get them to line up vertically in the correct fashion in web browser. that is why I add .... and extra annoying parts - to get the spacing correct.

R ' L ' R ' L ' R ' L ' R ' L ' R
o...o..o...o...o..u...u...u...o

I also like to add the direction arrow to help indicate which direction the fist is going. to the right is the normal direction, to the left is the "reverse" direction. note in the picture below. You will see Two white arrows over certain "R" Right fists, (circled in Red) one going right one going left. This indicates that fist hits the bag from one direction, then goes back the other way after the contact. This is necessary because we initiate the reverse motion after a fist hits. I prefer to start the reverse rotation from an normal punch coming "over" the other, but you can do it either way, as long as you know what you have written. But if you are writing this for "someone else....", it helps to show where the change of fist direction occurs. Sure, rather ticky and detailed, but I think some of these advanced combo's demand it.

[Speedbag]

Another great vid, ebozyn. Smoooooth. You guys have AK revising the Bible and now I'll never master all that shorthand notation (not to mention all these new techniques and combos).

Keep at it. Love your work.

I'm trying hard to get the notation down, and that is much faster than the skills to do it! I never had to write something I can't do until this bunch showed up.....

[Speedbag]

It's Really Fun to work out a Combo Strike by Strike, and write it down. I have Two notebooks that have what would probably look like chicken scratchings to someone else. but when i look at it it's beautiful movements.
haha sounds funny, but it is like a form of dance i guess, but mostly above the waist. the opposite of riverdance. hahaha

I have been writing Combos Down even before i owned a speed bag. i learned some of the shorthand from this forum, which would be your shorthand alan. but before i had the speed bag bible. i was writing combos down, and naming moves, and combos, so it's like half Your style of writing shorthand and half crap i came up with. but like you were saying, if it works for you...

but there is something really great about writing it all down, and taking your notebook to your platform , and going through the combos strike by strike.

i find it enjoyable.

Below is one of yours that I practice. You call it a Six Punch combo, but I wrote it and practice it as written below, hitting the bag 8 times. the FSP's are shadow/phantom (under the elbow of other arm, raised for the O-TES).

there is an interesting, and difficult, 3 fist section in the middle, starting with the lead fist of the OTES, then the Second fist of OTES, then that lead fist comes back as a FSP under the raised elbow of the next OTES. the picture below shows the combo written starting with either the OTES (upper left) or from the FSP, bottom.

It's really on two techniques but the difficulty is in the doing, not the writing....

You could actually eliminate the elbow contact and make this a continuous FDP combo adding the extra fist, kinda like a quickie 3-punch reverse front roll.

nice one, E.