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  • Trying more elbow strikes

    Here's a couple of clips i did today before going to work.Trying to work the double and triple elbows, I'm not feeling too well lately, but I had to get back at it regardless. Alan, I was wondering if my bag looks too low maybe? I don't think it is but sometimes I feel otherwise.




    and here's #2

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  • #2
    Great job Metaldad! What big improvement! Nothin' to say except keep going! One cool thing to try is to keep the rate of DES's and TES's the same as the rebounds in your FCP's and FDP's! That's why Alan Kahn can punch drum like no one; he has total control of the rhythm! And if you watch his clips, he gets such a great machine-like sound groove and power!
    BAG ON!

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    • #3
      Nice Elbows METALDAD!!!.....Work is paying off!!!.....as far as the height of your board goes try to have the belly of the bag at about the same level as your mouth or chin or just experiment and find where its comfortable. Keep em comin!!!!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by metaldad View Post
        Here's a couple of clips i did today before going to work.Trying to work the double and triple elbows, I'm not feeling too well lately, but I had to get back at it regardless.
        They all look and sound pretty good when you complete the movement. Your last fist of the Double or Triple seems to slip a bit when you "quit" at the end of the technique, probably thinking the technique is done, but you've got to continue with equal power in all parts or the bag speeds dies at the end.

        The fist contact of the Outward-Double Elbow Strikes, (O-DES) is really a Front Straight Punch (FCP) at the point of contact. You might try linking that fist through to a Reverse Single Punch (RSP) to get the feel of leaving the elbow UP after contact, reducing your shoulder rotation. After the elbow hits, keep it at about the same height as your fist, moving it more outward to the home position rather than letting it drop in a downward arc. Notice in Video #2, :41-:47, as your left arm does several continuous O-DES ' ' ' O-DES, how low your elbow is when the fist hits the bag. It will be difficult to link to the reverse with that low elbow position. notice how your shoulder swing naturally takes the elbow down to the position, but to link you want to start learning to move the forearm (fist to elbow) more "across your body" than downward. This will bring the elbow more "out" to the home position (note: Outward motion, not downward..) and your can just extend your fist straight "thru the bag" to the Reverse Single Punch (RSP). The extension is only a few inches, because the pass happens when the bag is on the board, you don't have to drop your hand underneath it.

        You are already doing this a Front Circle Punch (FCP) ' ' (RSP) I saw earlier in another video. It looks like this:

        #1:
        (O-DES) ' ' (RSP) ' ' (O-DES) ' ' (RSP)... all with the same arm. * The underline is the fist passing through the bag.

        If you have problems with that, Reverse it by starting from the RSP. Do a few of those and then the O-DES. Looks like this.

        #2
        (RSP) ' ' ' (RSP) ' ' ' (RSP) ' ' (O-DES) ' ' (RSP) ' ' ' (RSP) ' ' ' (RSP) ' ' (O-DES) ' ' (RSP)....


        The O-DES naturally follows a Front Straight Punch (FSP) of the same arm, so a nice flowing combo is:

        Basic ' ' ' Right: R_(FSP) ' ' ' R_(O-DES) ' ' ' Left: L_(FSP) ' ' ' L_(O-DES) ' ' '...repeat.


        You can progress that to include the RSP:

        #3
        Basic ' ' ' R_(FSP) ' ' ' R_(O-DES) ' ' R_(RSP) ' ' R-(FCP) ' ' ' Left: L_(FSP) ' ' ' L_(O-DES) ' ' L_(RSP) ' ' L-(FCP) ' ' '

        The above should help you get more control of the O-DES. the elbow motions of the above will work just as well with the O-TES, and it's the key for the O-TES because once you get control of the outward elbow and arm position, you just add a FSP on to the end to make it a triple. AND when you start trying to link the LEAD fist of the O-TES, you will already know how to do it, because that is really #1 above.


        Originally posted by metaldad View Post
        Alan, I was wondering if my bag looks too low maybe? I don't think it is but sometimes I feel otherwise.
        Yes, and No. The bag does look a bit lower than usual, with the belly just at the bottom of your chin. But is that really lower than it should be? That depends. The problem with a low bag is that your fist may naturally hit above the belly (fatest part) and that is no big deal if you are only hitting from the front, which you do in these video's. The problem of a low bag comes when you try to pass the fist(s) through and there is not enough room for your fist to extend when the bag compresses on the board. Generally I find the bag is too low when you can't pass your fists straight out and back without it getting caught by the bag belly on the board. (You should NOT have to duck your hand down and under the bag to get behind). If your hand(s) get caught in the center by the bag, it's too low.

        Note: If you hold your arms out "straight" to the sides with your palms down. then bring the fists slowly to the center of your chest, your fists will be at your chin, or a bit lower. This means the angle of your shoulder to elbow is straight, and if you keep the forearms parallel and extend your fist(s) straight out a few inches and back, you can easily hit a bag if the belly is there. The problem is getting the belly of a bag that low without the board resting on your head. At least for me, a short teardrop shape 8x5 bag belly will get the board just touching my hair. It's a bit easier with a longer bag, like a regular 9x6.

        The truth is, I find I can have the belly of most bags (depending on shape..) just a bit below my chin and still pass my fists comfortably underneath, and I use that lower position when my left shoulder is bothering me. The biggest problem I have with that low position is with the Downward Elbow movements, for my raised fist wants to hit the lowered board. Over time I have learned to adapt a bit by bending my knees (lowering myself and raising the bag belly...) to sneak in a few Downward Techniques when needed.

        So, MetalDad, try to link your fists on that bag height and see if it works. If you can do (FCP) ' ' RSP ' ' (FCP) without a problem, it's not too low. On the other hand, If your upper (second) fist constantly hits the board on a Downward-Triple Elbow Strike, it's probably too low for that technique.
        Last edited by Speedbag; 09-22-2009, 09:29 PM.
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        • #5
          good work. ur only gonna get better with practice so just keep baggin

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          • #6
            Looks great MD.. I think i will TRY and give that a go today.. just hard to see fist positions via vids.. keep up the good work mate

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            • #7
              Originally posted by goju View Post
              Looks great MD.. I think i will TRY and give that a go today.. just hard to see fist positions via vids.. keep up the good work mate
              Try continually freezing the video by clicking the "Arrow-Pause" button. It's easier to see the exact fist or elbow contact and arm position when it's paused. It's a bit blurry but at least it holds the image longer. If I want to review a specific place, I'll normally let my ears and the bag sound guide me when to click pause.
              Speed Bag

              Put a little Rhythm in YOUR workout!
              *attendee: Every SB gathering so far!
              The Quest Continues...
              Hoping for another Gathering...


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Speedbag View Post
                I'll normally let my ears and the bag sound guide me .
                well you are the master bagger after all alan

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                • #9
                  Hey metal....I know spin mentioned trying to even the timing of each rebound. Now, I don't know if you've gotten to these yet but the quadruple elbow strike, "elbow, fist, fist, elbow" was really helpful to me with that. You see, the OTES can get you slightly off beat if you are trying to punchdrum or whatnot... but the quad hits the right number of rebounds to make it sound almost like you never stopped doing FSP (so long as you keep the timing the same throughout) hopefully I'm explaining myself correctly, its kinda hard to explain haha....best of luck to ya.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jordan View Post
                    Hey metal....I know spin mentioned trying to even the timing of each rebound. Now, I don't know if you've gotten to these yet but the quadruple elbow strike, "elbow, fist, fist, elbow" was really helpful to me with that. You see, the OTES can get you slightly off beat if you are trying to punchdrum or whatnot... but the quad hits the right number of rebounds to make it sound almost like you never stopped doing FSP (so long as you keep the timing the same throughout) hopefully I'm explaining myself correctly, its kinda hard to explain haha....best of luck to ya.
                    I haven't started on quadruples yet But it couldn't hurt to try right?
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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jordan View Post
                      Hey metal....I know spin mentioned trying to even the timing of each rebound. Now, I don't know if you've gotten to these yet but the quadruple elbow strike, "elbow, fist, fist, elbow" was really helpful to me with that. You see, the OTES can get you slightly off beat if you are trying to punchdrum or whatnot... but the quad hits the right number of rebounds to make it sound almost like you never stopped doing FSP (so long as you keep the timing the same throughout) hopefully I'm explaining myself correctly, its kinda hard to explain haha....best of luck to ya.
                      Originally posted by metaldad View Post
                      I haven't started on quadruples yet But it couldn't hurt to try right?
                      Yeah, outside of a reverse fist roll/blast beat, the quads in the order Jordan mentioned are very difficult.... and then you see Tim Platt and The Skunk doing them with only one rebound in between, or none!
                      You could try other combos with the same rhythm....
                      A "phantom punch" (fist under the elbow, see Dee Pooler) into an Elbow, Fist , Fist.... Biff was just demonstrating that in his last vid. I think the "phantom punching" (Dee's term) is awesome. And overall, a little easier than what Jordan's "quads"! I am finally getting the quads together a bit after a year!
                      BAG ON!

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                      • #12
                        Yeah spin is right they are hard, I just kinda look at it like combining a OTES and an ITES, the hard part is the last strike the outside elbow, easy to miss....but I found it fun to learn.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by goju View Post
                          well you are the master bagger after all alan
                          Well, just one of several on this forum. There's a few master bagger's in here..

                          Originally posted by Jordan View Post
                          Yeah spin is right they are hard, I just kinda look at it like combining a OTES and an ITES, the hard part is the last strike the outside elbow, easy to miss....but I found it fun to learn.
                          Pretty close, J. Combining and Outward Triple Elbow Strike (O-TES) with an Inward-Triple Elbow Strike (I-TES) will make the last strike an INWARD elbow, not an outside Elbow. The fist order will be:

                          E-F\F ' ' ' F\F-E or advance it to ONE rebound: E-F\F ' F\F-E, but either way the LAST strike is the Inward-Elbow, which is the most difficult contact to follow anything with.

                          Metaldad, you are already doing the 4-beat pattern on your 4-punch fist rolls (R-L-R-L): From a punch drumming standpoint this is a better choice to link off of or maintain a steady beat. It is pretty hard to keep any reliable beat off an inward Elbow, because you can't really judge the power of it. Sure, you can use it - it's just not as easy to mix as a Fist Roll. It would be a good choice to "end" a song, a phrase of measure with, when you stop the bag or let a few unpunched beats float by, (resting beats), but to mix off it consistenly is harder do to the technique finish taking almost all your "sticks" (fists and elbows) out of position.

                          that is why you see most folks combining it with the same elbow leading back, which is pretty slick but difficult on a double bump like "some people do".
                          Last edited by Speedbag; 09-23-2009, 07:45 PM.
                          Speed Bag

                          Put a little Rhythm in YOUR workout!
                          *attendee: Every SB gathering so far!
                          The Quest Continues...
                          Hoping for another Gathering...


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                          The Art of the Bag

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jordan View Post
                            Yeah spin is right they are hard, I just kinda look at it like combining a OTES and an ITES, the hard part is the last strike the outside elbow, easy to miss....but I found it fun to learn.
                            Jordan, post a vid! I'd like to see how you are progressing, especially if yo are working on that stuff!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Speedbag View Post
                              Well, just one of several on this forum. There's a few master bagger's in here..



                              .
                              thats very true..

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