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  • Front F-Roll to Reverse F-roll

    This transference of the fists from front roll to rear roll has become my white whale. I am referring to dropping the fist roll under the bag to the rear of the bag without missing a beat. The only way I can seamlessly get my roll to the back is with a side single to walk my fists around

    Any tips on dropping under the bag? Annnd, are we talking about one rebound or two as the seam? Best case scenario would be to not hear any change.

  • #2
    Try doing a front fist roll into a reverse double punch repeatedly. The last fist on FFR becomes the first fist of the RDP as with other front to back techniques, alternate the lead fists often. Of course other behind the bag practice is needed to be relaxed and comfy back there. Those are the tips that helped me and eventually what seemed insanely unnatural at first became new instincts.

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    • #3
      Now the reverse direction fist roll F***s me all up!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cazbag View Post
        Now the reverse direction fist roll F***s me all up!
        LOL


        I've tried the method you're suggesting and yes it works. Currently about 1 in 6 tries. Guess that's a start, I can hear it in my head and see my fists doing it so it's only a matter of time, like everything else.

        Comment


        • #5
          It took me a while to realize the "home" position for front and reverse rolls is not very far apart at all, for me anyway. Once I shortened that distance up I could do it more constantly. In my mind at first I thought the positioning had to be farther apart and that turned out to be very wrong!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cazbag View Post
            It took me a while to realize the "home" position for front and reverse rolls is not very far apart at al
            That makes a lot of sense, gonna take some time unless that eureka moment happens (and it does) but I'm already getting a better results! Thank ya'

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by BagBoy View Post
              This transference of the fists from front roll to rear roll has become my white whale. I am referring to dropping the fist roll under the bag to the rear of the bag without missing a beat.
              [/B]
              Hey BagBoy,

              You might a simple linking exercise of passing both fists front to back, AND if the bag is at the correct height and your elbows are more "up" than down, you will notice your fists go "straight" through the bag, without a noticeable "ducking under" movement, which would mean you would have to start the Reverse Roll (R-Roll) with and upward angling fist. not easy to do in that quick exchange.
              So...pass both fist Front to Back, Front Double Punch (FDP) to Reverse Double Punch (RDP) with TWO rebounds in-between, written like this s

              (FDP) ' ' RDP) ' ' ...repeat.

              Notice your fist order, and the Fist Roll with always start on the last (2nd) fist of the double punch. Just Do FDP ' ' RDP and occasionally throw in a five punch fist roll, on either side of the bag (it doesn't matter). (five punches is key because it does 2 things. First of all it is long enough to feel like a fist Roll and second, this will keep your fists in the same order ..IF..and this is a big IF....your understand the Fist #4 starts the pass through. that means

              a fist roll like this R-L-R-L-R will have five beats and lets your dominant (right in this example) start and end the roll, either side of bag, but notice fist #4 "L"
              hits the bag and goes straight behind, to start the pass through. Fist #5 will connect and follow to start (lead) the RDP behind the bag. or you can envision this as a 3 punch Fist Roll and punches 4 & 5 are actually the FDP. however you envision this. (OR, you could just make it a 7 punch Roll and let punches 6-7 be the FDP that passes under, like R-L-R-L-R-L-R

              Either way, and two singles punches with one rebound in between can always be view, and written as a Double Punch. The KEY for YOU is to learn to break into this Roll directly off the double fist pass through.
              Also, the R-Roll is easier if you do NOT roll your fists over each other, which is actually a bit awkward. When a R-Roll is done correct at speed most of us notice the fists are more "chopping" next to each other, more than rolling over each other. AND when done fast you will notice you can actually see you fists hit behind the bag! That is a positional key for the bagger. When you see your Reverse fists connect behind it means the bag is really UP over your hands, and the hands are not so much behind the bag. I mention this because in Cazbag comment below he notes the fists position for the Rolls are "not so much apart" and are near the home position. EXACTLY .
              when done correctly the hands do not wander far from the home position. Especially with a smaller 8x5 bag, which is almost always "over the hands" when hitting reverse techniques.

              So Try this

              FDP ' ' RDP ' ' FDP ' ' R-Roll x5-7 ' ' FDP ' ' RDP ' ' F-Rollx5-7 ' ' RDP ' ' repeat.

              Try this without the bag. just air punch it. yes that works. imagine the sound of the rebounding bag. It's already in your head.

              The Fist order doesn't matter. start with whatever is the most comfortable with your dominant hand. For me, that means my "Right" Fist will be the second fist of the FDP - or L-R this makes it a L-R ' ' R-L for FDP ' ' RDP.

              NOW eventually you want to work this where you are only doing the FDP and the reverse technique is always the R-Roll

              FDP ' ' R-Rollx5-7 ' ' FDP ' ' R-Rollx5-7 ' '

              You could also vary this by breaking off into a few continuous RDP's also.
              note the three rebound in this combo ' ' '

              FDP ' ' R-Rollx5 or 7 ' ' FDP ' ' RDP ' ' 'RDP ' ' ' RDP ' ' FDP ' ' R-Rollx5-7

              This adds a little more variety and control to the mix. And gets your hands more comfortable behind the bag.

              (*note: you can rotate the fist order of the double punch on the other side of the bag, but it makes it a bit more complicated. rotating the fists of one double punch (RDP) will keep "the same" fist order AND the same fist will always lead the double punch. for instance if the FDP ' ' RDP is done with a rotated RDP, it will look like this. L-R ' ' L-R..rotated fists I see a lot of baggers rotate fists in FDP ' ' RDP and they don't even know it, and that it because they prefer their dominant hand be the second fist and they never practice it otherwise. They don't realize it's actually a bit more complicated to do that, but it works for them.

              So, I suggest you do the practice combo above and I'm hoping your hands will finally get the exchange.

              Originally posted by BagBoy View Post
              ....The only way I can seamlessly get my roll to the back is with a side single to walk my fists around

              Any tips on dropping under the bag? And, are we talking about one rebound or two as the seam? Best case scenario would be to not hear any change.

              This is an amazing note on your part! You are exactly correct. You can "easily" walk your hands around the bag, front to back, by adding in a Side Single Punch (SSP). It is written as FDP ' SSP ' RDP or R-Roll

              In this sequence, there is always one rebound between the fists. When eliminating the Side Single, going straight From FDP ' ' RDP it is always two, because the "next fist" hits on the opposite side of the bag, either Front or Reverse. Side punches change things.

              SO.. just for you, lets expand a bit since you have here's a cool little combo.
              after the SSP, you do not have to go directly behind. While that fist is hitting SSP, (say your right fist on the right side of bag..) let your left fist float out a bit to position for a SSP on the other side. Now, let your right fist hit SSP, pass through again to front, (or angle a bit over to the left cheek) and let this right fist lead a Side Double Punch from the other side of the bag....

              IT looks like this

              FDP ' SSP ' ' SDP...where do you want to go now... You Can go directly to the Reverse Fist Roll (R-Roll) because the Left fist now made that SSP you've been doing on the other side. We just changed the side of the bag used. it looks like this

              FDP ' SSP ' ' SDP ' R-Roll (because the 2nd fist of that SDP is the SSP you already did on the other side. Cool! YEP, you can always go to a R-Roll from and Side fist technique. Also, that FDP could be any two fists in a F-Roll...so
              F-Roll ' SSP ' ' SDP ' R-Roll BAM!! bet ya didn't see that coming...

              note the rebounds below

              SDP ' ' SDP ' R-Roll ' SSP ' ' SDP ' ' SDP ' R-Roll....

              This works because there is a technique called the Reverse-Side Double Punch (R-SDP). This is a single fist from behind and a single fist from the side on "1" rebound. Key is understanding that ANY fist in a fist roll could also be the first (lead) fist in another technique.

              (Same is true for your "walk around" with one rebound. what actually happened is the "second fist of your FDP was also the lead fist of a SDP!
              yes, confusing perhaps, but when you start looking at single fist contacts within techniques your horizons and bag opportunities expand. Anyway, that was just for fun.

              note FDP ' ' ' SDP ( L-R ' ' ' L-R fist order on 3 rebounds, same lead fist L )
              also FDP ' SSP (R-L ' R fist order....or L-R ' L order. doesn't matter. the red fists could be viewed as a SDP)
              also F-Roll ' SSP.....it doesn't matter! any two punches in the F-Roll are also a FDPs, there are just more of them. You can go to a SSP with either fist.

              +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

              Originally posted by Cazbag View Post
              It took me a while to realize the "home" position for front and reverse rolls is not very far apart at all, for me anyway. Once I shortened that distance up I could do it more constantly. In my mind at first I thought the positioning had to be farther apart and that turned out to be very wrong!
              True, because when done correctly, the bag is actually on the front portion of the board, UP over your hands and at that point your hands are pretty much in the home position.

              I'm done now. hope some of this helps.
              Last edited by Speedbag; 06-01-2019, 12:48 PM.
              Speed Bag

              Put a little Rhythm in YOUR workout!
              *attendee: Every SB gathering so far!
              The Quest Continues...
              Onward to SpeedB.A.G. X! Summer 2019

              THE 10th Year Reunion!

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              The Art of the Bag

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Speedbag View Post
                Hey BagBoy,

                You might a simple linking exercise of passing both fists front to back, AND if the bag is at the correct height and your elbows are more "up" than down, you will notice your fists go "straight" through the bag, without a noticeable "ducking under" movement, which would mean you would have to start the Reverse Roll (R-Roll) with and upward angling fist. not easy to do in that quick exchange.
                So...pass both fist Front to Back, Front Double Punch (FDP) to Reverse Double Punch (RDP) with TWO rebounds in-between, written like this s

                (FDP) ' ' RDP) ' ' ...repeat.

                Notice your fist order, and the Fist Roll with always start on the last (2nd) fist of the double punch. Just Do FDP ' ' RDP and occasionally throw in a five punch fist roll, on either side of the bag (it doesn't matter). (five punches is key because it does 2 things. First of all it is long enough to feel like a fist Roll and second, this will keep your fists in the same order ..IF..and this is a big IF....your understand the Fist #4 starts the pass through. that means

                a fist roll like this R-L-R-L-R will have five beats and lets your dominant (right in this example) start and end the roll, either side of bag, but notice fist #4 "L"
                hits the bag and goes straight behind, to start the pass through. Fist #5 will connect and follow to start (lead) the RDP behind the bag. or you can envision this as a 3 punch Fist Roll and punches 4 & 5 are actually the FDP. however you envision this. (OR, you could just make it a 7 punch Roll and let punches 6-7 be the FDP that passes under, like R-L-R-L-R-L-R

                Either way, and two singles punches with one rebound in between can always be view, and written as a Double Punch. The KEY for YOU is to learn to break into this Roll directly off the double fist pass through.
                Also, the R-Roll is easier if you do NOT roll your fists over each other, which is actually a bit awkward. When a R-Roll is done correct at speed most of us notice the fists are more "chopping" next to each other, more than rolling over each other. AND when done fast you will notice you can actually see you fists hit behind the bag! That is a positional key for the bagger. When you see your Reverse fists connect behind it means the bag is really UP over your hands, and the hands are not so much behind the bag. I mention this because in Cazbag comment below he notes the fists position for the Rolls are "not so much apart" and are near the home position. EXACTLY .
                when done correctly the hands do not wander far from the home position. Especially with a smaller 8x5 bag, which is almost always "over the hands" when hitting reverse techniques.

                So Try this

                FDP ' ' RDP ' ' FDP ' ' R-Roll x5-7 ' ' FDP ' ' RDP ' ' F-Rollx5-7 ' ' RDP ' ' repeat.

                Try this without the bag. just air punch it. yes that works. imagine the sound of the rebounding bag. It's already in your head.

                The Fist order doesn't matter. start with whatever is the most comfortable with your dominant hand. For me, that means my "Right" Fist will be the second fist of the FDP - or L-R this makes it a L-R ' ' R-L for FDP ' ' RDP.

                NOW eventually you want to work this where you are only doing the FDP and the reverse technique is always the R-Roll

                FDP ' ' R-Rollx5-7 ' ' FDP ' ' R-Rollx5-7 ' '

                You could also vary this by breaking off into a few continuous RDP's also.
                note the three rebound in this combo ' ' '

                FDP ' ' R-Rollx5 or 7 ' ' FDP ' ' RDP ' ' 'RDP ' ' ' RDP ' ' FDP ' ' R-Rollx5-7

                This adds a little more variety and control to the mix. And gets your hands more comfortable behind the bag.

                (*note: you can rotate the fist order of the double punch on the other side of the bag, but it makes it a bit more complicated. rotating the fists of one double punch (RDP) will keep "the same" fist order AND the same fist will always lead the double punch. for instance if the FDP ' ' RDP is done with a rotated RDP, it will look like this. L-R ' ' L-R..rotated fists I see a lot of baggers rotate fists in FDP ' ' RDP and they don't even know it, and that it because they prefer their dominant hand be the second fist and they never practice it otherwise. They don't realize it's actually a bit more complicated to do that, but it works for them.

                So, I suggest you do the practice combo above and I'm hoping your hands will finally get the exchange.




                This is an amazing note on your part! You are exactly correct. You can "easily" walk your hands around the bag, front to back, by adding in a Side Single Punch (SSP). It is written as FDP ' SSP ' RDP or R-Roll

                In this sequence, there is always one rebound between the fists. When eliminating the Side Single, going straight From FDP ' ' RDP it is always two, because the "next fist" hits on the opposite side of the bag, either Front or Reverse. Side punches change things.

                SO.. just for you, lets expand a bit since you have here's a cool little combo.
                after the SSP, you do not have to go directly behind. While that fist is hitting SSP, (say your right fist on the right side of bag..) let your left fist float out a bit to position for a SSP on the other side. Now, let your right fist hit SSP, pass through again to front, (or angle a bit over to the left cheek) and let this right fist lead a Side Double Punch from the other side of the bag....

                IT looks like this

                FDP ' SSP ' ' SDP...where do you want to go now... You Can go directly to the Reverse Fist Roll (R-Roll) because the Left fist now made that SSP you've been doing on the other side. We just changed the side of the bag used. it looks like this

                FDP ' SSP ' ' SDP ' R-Roll (because the 2nd fist of that SDP is the SSP you already did on the other side. Cool! YEP, you can always go to a R-Roll from and Side fist technique. Also, that FDP could be any two fists in a F-Roll...so
                F-Roll ' SSP ' ' SDP ' R-Roll BAM!! bet ya didn't see that coming...

                note the rebounds below

                SDP ' ' SDP ' R-Roll ' SSP ' ' SDP ' ' SDP ' R-Roll....

                This works because there is a technique called the Reverse-Side Double Punch (R-SDP). This is a single fist from behind and a single fist from the side on "1" rebound. Key is understanding that ANY fist in a fist roll could also be the first (lead) fist in another technique.

                (Same is true for your "walk around" with one rebound. what actually happened is the "second fist of your FDP was also the lead fist of a SDP!
                yes, confusing perhaps, but when you start looking at single fist contacts within techniques your horizons and bag opportunities expand. Anyway, that was just for fun.

                note FDP ' ' ' SDP ( L-R ' ' ' L-R fist order on 3 rebounds, same lead fist L )
                also FDP ' SSP (R-L ' R fist order....or L-R ' L order. doesn't matter. the red fists could be viewed as a SDP)
                also F-Roll ' SSP.....it doesn't matter! any two punches in the F-Roll are also a FDPs, there are just more of them. You can go to a SSP with either fist.

                +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



                True, because when done correctly, the bag is actually on the front portion of the board, UP over your hands and at that point your hands are pretty much in the home position.

                I'm done now. hope some of this helps.

                Alan, huge thanks for taking the time to type that out for me. That gives me a lot to go on and I really like the;

                "FDP ' ' RDP ' ' FDP ' ' R-Roll x5-7 ' ' FDP ' ' RDP ' ' F-Rollx5-7 ' ' RDP ' ' repeat.

                Try this without the bag. just air punch it. yes that works. imagine the sound of the rebounding bag. It's already in your head.
                "

                One problem I noticed is that when I get to the back of the bag my fists jump up to lightning speed thus throwing off the rhythm and starting tempo and this gets me on shaky legs so to speak. I think I've been unknowingly speeding up back there like a panic move to keep things going, if that makes any sense.

                Thanks again!
                Last edited by BagBoy; 06-01-2019, 07:08 PM. Reason: removing italic

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sounds like something we can all work out in person in damn near few weeks!!!! I'm so pumped!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BagBoy View Post
                    Alan, huge thanks for taking the time to type that out for me. That gives me a lot to go on and I really like the;

                    "FDP ' ' RDP ' ' FDP ' ' R-Roll x5-7 ' ' FDP ' ' RDP ' ' F-Rollx5-7 ' ' RDP ' ' repeat.

                    Try this without the bag. just air punch it. yes that works. imagine the sound of the rebounding bag. It's already in your head.
                    "

                    One problem I noticed is that when I get to the back of the bag my fists jump up to lightning speed thus throwing off the rhythm and starting tempo and this gets me on shaky legs so to speak. I think I've been unknowingly speeding up back there like a panic move to keep things going, if that makes any sense.

                    Thanks again!

                    You are not the first person to say this, that their fists seem to speed up when behind the bag. I'm not sure why that is. My only "deep thought" would be maybe you are hitting it a bit harder, causing the bag speed AND your fists to go faster. The bag will not go faster by itself, so if your fists are going faster it must be in reaction to the bag, which is also going faster. The only reason for that would be more force (slightly harder punch) increase your bag speed.

                    As a solution I would offer doing a lot more Reverse Double Punch (RDP) and Reverse Fist Roll (R-Roll) and force your hands to stay behind to practice constant speed and force.

                    RDP ' ' ' RDP ' ' ' R-Roll x5-7 ' ' ' RDP ' ' '.....repeat

                    then, after two or three R-Roll segments, pass both to front for F-Roll x5-7 exchange. After F-Roll, pass back to RDP or R-Roll and continue the above exercise.

                    note, you can pass to front of bag, after both the RDP or R-Roll. remember, the last two punches of your R-Roll are also a RDP.




                    NOW, just for fun you can also vary this by going from RDP (or R-Roll, but RDP may be easier) You can also to a couple of Side Double Punch (SDP) Combinations, and then back to RDP.

                    I'll give your three options:

                    RDP ' ' SDP. the lead fist of the RDP goes to side of bag. the 2nd fist passes to front to lead the SDP.

                    looks like this RDP ' ' SDP ' ' SDP ' ' ' RDP. (could also do SDP ' RDP. this is faster with four punches in a row with one rebound inbetween.

                    second option we already did in the other long post.

                    RDP or R-Roll ' SSP ' ' SDP ' ' SDP ' ' ' RDP or R-Roll


                    third option is also a deeper explanation of the second. what happened above is that the last fist of the RDP or R-Roll is also the lead (first) fist of the "Reverse-Side Double Punch" (R-SDP). try this. It wasn't written in the combo, but it happened.

                    To get this R-SDP....Put one (dominant) fist to side punch position. Do RSP ' ' ' RSP ' ' ' RSP ' SSP that is the R-SDP technique. It is created by fact that you can always go directly from Reverse-to-side on 1 or 3 rebounds. (note in exercise option 1 above in the RDP ' ' SDP, it is an even number of rebounds because the last fist of the RDP passed to front of bag, requiring an even number)

                    Now using the R-SDP, which is unwritten in the next combination (but DOES occur), you can do this.

                    R-Roll ' SSP ' ' SDP ' R-Roll (remember you already did SDP ' RDP. now your just adding more fists onto the RDP to make it a roll. by the way, the lead fist of that SDP passes to back to lead the R-Roll

                    I use both SDP ' R-Roll and F-Roll ' SSP and R-Roll ' SSP and FDP ' SSP ALOT in combinations. so do ALL the "bad boys of bag". It's total fist control around the bag.

                    ok, I can't help but tell you that you can also do this from the outward and downward triple elbow strikes, BECAUSE they are nothing more than FDP with an elbow added in the mix: for outward the elbow leads, for Downward the elbow is in the middle, But it does not matter. ANY combo in you can do with FDP you can also do with O-TES or D-TES.



                    Is this getting good or what!! your swivel will be smokin' when you get all this down...
                    Last edited by Speedbag; 06-05-2019, 07:37 AM.
                    Speed Bag

                    Put a little Rhythm in YOUR workout!
                    *attendee: Every SB gathering so far!
                    The Quest Continues...
                    Onward to SpeedB.A.G. X! Summer 2019

                    THE 10th Year Reunion!

                    sigpic

                    The Art of the Bag

                    Comment

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