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  • swfl
    Speed Bag Guru
    • Apr 2013
    • 274

    front fist roll

    Good evening. Struggling getting the front fist roll. The bible makes it seem simple...Is it best to start slowly and build speed or just step in and work on the timing at a fast rate? Trying both and just wish it would click. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Today the first everlast bag blew a seam. Think I had too much air in it but like the action.
  • Speedbag
    Author of the Speed Bag Bible, founder of speedbagcentral.com

    • Feb 2006
    • 7109

    #2
    Originally posted by swfl View Post
    Good evening. Struggling getting the front fist roll. The bible makes it seem simple...Is it best to start slowly and build speed or just step in and work on the timing at a fast rate? Trying both and just wish it would click. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Today the first everlast bag blew a seam. Think I had too much air in it but like the action.
    "...Is it best to

    (1) start slowly and build speed
    (2) or just step in and work on the timing at a fast rate?"

    The answer to both is yes....

    I've seen both methods work for learning the Front Fist Roll (F-Roll).

    Some people find 1 works best some people find 2. The Fist Roll is normally one of the easiest techniques to learn, but it is also one of the hardest to do slowly for that takes a bit more control and often beginners find it easier to start with a faster rolling motion, however they often only hit it five or six times then break down for various reasons. Getting "into" a Roll and "out of" a roll need to be addressed.

    Here's a few tips. Practice the fist rolling motion with hands only, without the bag. Hold the arms up pretty close to parallel, and roll the fists slowly and evenly over each other, with the top of your fists passing just under your chin. I don't suggest you extend them further out at this point. With the fists under the chin, you will notice a slight "V" position from your fists out to your elbows, and this V will be the pocket where the bag sits. One of the secrets for controlling the roll, (and actually making it faster..) is to lean in toward the bag, so your fists make contact in the roll just after it comes off the board, about half way from the contact point to the resting up and down position under the swivel. Leaning in like this of course lessens the distance that the bag must travel, and I have found this helps correct the mis-hits that can occur when trying to learn to control the F-Roll. As you lean in the roll will start to feel just a bit faster automatically due to the shortened distance and the bag hitting your fists faster, not because of power or fist movement, but simply because it happens quicker within the shorter distance. Do not be afraid that the bag will hit you in the face during the roll because your fists are up protecting it, and due to the leaning angle, you did not have to extend your fists way out in front of the face to make the contacts. extending your fists outward, or reaching for the bag to make contact tends to be problematic for beginners and create less consistent fist contact and rebound angles. So, when you lean in, rolling fast or slow, the fist contacts and rebound angle will correct faster IF you missed. If you didn't mis-hit, then great, it will do what it's supposed to.

    But be sure and lean back before you make the last rolling punching and let the bag again fly free to the front of the board. If your hands aren't up, that rebound may hit you in the nose if you don't move back. And yes, that is the voice of experience, for it still happens to me occassionally, particularly when changing bags sizes and shapes during the workout. I caught full contact from a Balazs Lazer the other day and my nose still feels it! I exited a Front Fist Roll by passed my right fist through to a Reverse Single Punch, hit it dead on...and...forgot to lean back. yes, it hurt.

    But another important tip for learning Fist Rolling, (front or reverse) is COUNTING the rebounds, or fists contacts. This is important because most beginners will learn to start a fist roll very quickly, but ending it smoothly when you want to is usually harder. Most beginners will just roll until they crash, constantly "anticipating" where to stop, but that anticipation often leads to inaction until their control breaks down and they crash after any number of rebounds. SO, here is a simple exercise I have found works pretty well.

    First, Consider a "two punch" fist roll is actually a Front Double Punch (FDP), so we will focus on three punches to actually count as Fist Rolling. So, start with only a three punch fist roll. Do it this way, do three Front Circle Punches (FCP) with the right fist ( or left if you are left handed. use your dominant hand..) then on the third FCP, go Right, Left, Right -(R-L-R) - STOP.

    that is a 3-punch fist roll, and you started and stopped with the right fist. notice the right fist hit on the "ODD" count, 1 and 3, and the left hit on the even 2. That is important, because now we will punch by numbers.

    (remember, as kids we painted by numbers, now we'll punch by them )

    Now do a Four punch Front Fist Roll: hit FCP x3 and on the 3rd punch, start rolling; Right - Left - Right - Left - STOP. Now you did a four punch roll, starting on the Right Fist and ending on the Left fist. Notice this is a bit harder if you are right handed but it's important to learn to start and stop on opposit fists. Best part is, it was only a four punch First Roll, so you don't get a lot of punches to lose control of movement or power.

    Now advance to a FIVE Punch Fist Roll: FCP x3 then R-L-R-L-R. AT this point, the five punch roll really starts feeling like a Fist Roll for it's got five beats and a bit more action, but still it's only five punches, and you are learning to hit before it, lean in, start the roll, count five then lean back and exit the roll. Do it starting and stopping with both the Right Fist, then Left Fist.

    I suggest practicing the four punch and five punch fist rolls for several night, leading with both hands. start with right, then left. The counting numbers will always work this for you. Odd numbers will start and end on the same fist, Even number fist rolls will start and exit on the opposite fist.

    Once you can control the four and five punch rolls pretty well, then go to the six and seven punch rolls. When you can enter and exit a fist roll at any point between 3-7 punches, you should have enough control to roll for any number you want to, as long as you want to. Then start adding power in the middle of the roll, and backing off during the roll, to hone in on speed changes while rolling. And I suggest always leaning in a bit, just because it has always seemed to clean up any shaky fist roll, from beginner to advanced.

    I also suggest you do the above with the more standard "fist OVER fist" rolling motion, with the next punch coming from over the top of the last fist. This is important because after the fist contact on the bag, the fist roll motion drops that fist down out of the arc of the rebound as the next fist hits from over the top. Why is that important...?

    because....

    There is also a "reverse motion" Front Fist Roll, with the next punch coming from "under the last fist" but this is much more difficult because the last fist to hit the bag is then moving UPWARD into the rebound of the bag and has to be pulled back faster out of the way, and it's a bit awkward.

    This changing directions of the Front Fist Roll has been in vogue now for a couple of years and has become it's own specialty for several forum members, sadly not me being one. I can do it for a few punches, but not at great speeds and the "upward" contacting Front Fist Roll just seems backward to me. My brain refuses to accept the change for some reason, but members like G-Town, Skunk and Juxt can flat out rip it in either direction, constantly changing. It's magical to watch....

    but not important at this point for a beginner. Once you can do a 5 punch roll really well with either fist leading, THEN play with reversing the motion, and doing the Front Fist Roll in the reverse direction, with then next punch coming from underneath.

    hope that helps you get Control Of The Roll
    Speed Bag

    Put a little Rhythm in YOUR workout!
    *attendee: Every SB gathering so far!
    The Quest Continues...
    Hoping for another Gathering...


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    • Salvatore Tortellini
      Member
      • Feb 2013
      • 49

      #3
      That was really helpful instructions for a new person trying to figure out, picture and practice in order succeed at this. Thank you.

      Comment

      • fedora
        Speed Bag Guru
        • Dec 2012
        • 471

        #4
        This was one technique that I had learned how to do years ago so was relatively easy for me to pick back up again, as long as it was all I did. Since I joined the forum here and started learning all these other moves, I have found it challenging to transition into it from other combinations. It's the first couple of rotations that sometimes go a bit wonky, but then after I get going it smooths out. The trick was getting my hands in the right position immediately. After months of practice I'm getting it down. But after reading Alans instructions I'm thinking that I should lean into it more as I transition into it.

        I've been working on doing the reverses' as well and man they are a mind bender. Talk about changing horse's in mid stream. But that is exactly why I started this up again, to get my mind to work at overcoming challenges.

        One of the exercises I do is to start with the forward roll and walk the board all the way around and then switch to the roll from behind the bag and walk it back around the opposite way and then try, and I mean try and switch to the front reverse roll and walk it around the board in the opposite direction again. When I first started I couldn't even get around the board with the front roll but now 8 times out of 10 I can make it around on all 3. Not super fast, but I'm hoping to gear it up as my control improves.

        fedora

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        • Speedbag
          Author of the Speed Bag Bible, founder of speedbagcentral.com

          • Feb 2006
          • 7109

          #5
          Originally posted by fedora View Post
          This was one technique that I had learned how to do years ago so was relatively easy for me to pick back up again, as long as it was all I did. Since I joined the forum here and started learning all these other moves, I have found it challenging to transition into it from other combinations. It's the first couple of rotations that sometimes go a bit wonky, but then after I get going it smooths out. The trick was getting my hands in the right position immediately. After months of practice I'm getting it down. But after reading Alans instructions I'm thinking that I should lean into it more as I transition into it.

          I've been working on doing the reverses' as well and man they are a mind bender. Talk about changing horse's in mid stream. But that is exactly why I started this up again, to get my mind to work at overcoming challenges.

          One of the exercises I do is to start with the forward roll and walk the board all the way around and then switch to the roll from behind the bag and walk it back around the opposite way and then try, and I mean try and switch to the front reverse roll and walk it around the board in the opposite direction again. When I first started I couldn't even get around the board with the front roll but now 8 times out of 10 I can make it around on all 3. Not super fast, but I'm hoping to gear it up as my control improves.

          fedora
          Walking a circle around the board is a good idea, and to help emphasize fist and rolling control, try setting a rebound count on your rolls, count the rebounds then change. For instance, set the number as 7 or 9, start your Front Fist roll (F-Roll) and do it until you reach that count, then change to the Reverse Fist Roll (R-Roll) for seven punches, then change to the front. Do this AS you are walking around.

          The reason for this is to learn to start and stop a Fist Roll on either side, when YOU want to, and practice the quicker transition of both fists from front to back. As you walk around the bag you may find with this method you will change two or three times before you complete your walk, depending on the rebound count you use.

          {F-Roll) ' ' ' ' ' ' ' (R-Roll) ' ' ' ' ' ' '....repeat,

          If you use "5", then you will change more often and will really be emphasizing the transitions between rolls rather than the rolling itself. The point is, if you can do a 10-15-20 punch roll as you walk around the bag you are not really practicing (1) entering (2) exiting (3) transitioning, between Front and Reverse Rolls, but rather just rolling. After you can do a 7 stroke fist roll, it should be no probably to keep it going for as long as you want, for you have the rolling motion.

          Then Change it and use an "even number" transition, starting and stopping with the opposite fist as you walk around.

          Now for variation, do the above, Start a Front Fist Roll (F-Roll), and count 5, 6 or 7 contacts, then instead of a Reverse Fist Roll (R-Roll), do a Reverse Double Punch (RDP), then go back to the F-Roll. Totally different combo and feel. This emphasizes going from the F-Roll to another non-rolling technique. (F-Roll) ' ' ' ' ' (RDP) ' ' (F-Roll) * don't forget, 2 rebounds in the transition front to reverse

          then do it the other way, Reverse Roll (R-Roll) to Front Double Punch (FDP).

          bump it up just a bit, do this..

          (F-Roll) ' ' ' ' ' (RDP) ' ' (FDP) ' ' (R-Roll) ' ' ' ' ' (FDP) ' ' (RDP) ' ' (F-Roll).....
          notice the continuous double punches between the rolls. And do it as you're walking around under the board.

          There a lots of ways to add variety to this, for instance, after a R-Roll, you can go to at least 18 other techniques such as

          R-Roll ' ' Outward or Downward double or triple elbow strike ' ' R-Roll

          Some many combinations
          Speed Bag

          Put a little Rhythm in YOUR workout!
          *attendee: Every SB gathering so far!
          The Quest Continues...
          Hoping for another Gathering...


          sigpic

          The Art of the Bag

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          • fedora
            Speed Bag Guru
            • Dec 2012
            • 471

            #6
            Thanks for those tips Alan. I just went out to the garage and tried a few and it threw me off a bit at first. Trying to move around the board AND doing front to back rolling after 5-7 punches make's you really concentrate on bag control. I'm going to really work on this mix up.

            fedora

            Comment

            • Speedbag
              Author of the Speed Bag Bible, founder of speedbagcentral.com

              • Feb 2006
              • 7109

              #7
              Originally posted by fedora View Post
              Thanks for those tips Alan. I just went out to the garage and tried a few and it threw me off a bit at first. Trying to move around the board AND doing front to back rolling after 5-7 punches make's you really concentrate on bag control. I'm going to really work on this mix up.

              fedora
              I think it will really increase your fist AND body control. walking one way, changing directions of fists, then maybe walk the other way....

              and don't even mention reversing the direction of the front fist roll.
              Speed Bag

              Put a little Rhythm in YOUR workout!
              *attendee: Every SB gathering so far!
              The Quest Continues...
              Hoping for another Gathering...


              sigpic

              The Art of the Bag

              Comment

              • fedora
                Speed Bag Guru
                • Dec 2012
                • 471

                #8
                Originally posted by Speedbag View Post
                and don't even mention reversing the direction of the front fist roll.
                Well I did have to try it and yes lets not talk or mention that one, at least for good while.

                fedora

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                • bbally
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2013
                  • 121

                  #9
                  Originally posted by fedora View Post
                  Well I did have to try it and yes lets not talk or mention that one, at least for good while.

                  fedora
                  I struggled with it for a while. Finally went back and learned that to reverse it you have to know on each of the bags you hit where that sweet spot on the belly is located.

                  Once I slowed it down and found that sweet rebound spot it was pretty damn easy. Especially when compared to the epileptic seizure it appeared I was having when I first tried it without paying attention to the rebound location of the bag!
                  Last edited by bbally; 04-18-2013, 12:54 PM.
                  sgt
                  USMC 79-85


                  Thanks to all who continue to serve... and to those that answered the call in the past!

                  Comment

                  • Marlon
                    Member
                    • Apr 2013
                    • 94

                    #10
                    The front Fist-Roll was one of the few techniques that I felt comfortable with pretty quickly (I'm still a newbie) but getting in and out of it - not so much.

                    Thanks for the great posts Alan. I am trying to learn the transitions (in & out) so that I develop good habits.

                    Your DVD is great, but your response to this thread really gives me a 360 degree understanding of what you show on the disc.

                    As for the Reverse stuff....YEEEESH! I will have lots of questions on "passing your hands through the bag" but down the road a bit....Still working on the 4 basic front tech's first.

                    I'll be back practicing again just as soon as I can lift my arms.

                    Comment

                    • Speedbag
                      Author of the Speed Bag Bible, founder of speedbagcentral.com

                      • Feb 2006
                      • 7109

                      #11
                      Originally posted by bbally View Post
                      I struggled with it for a while. Finally went back and learned that to reverse it you have to know on each of the bags you hit where that sweet spot on the belly is located.

                      Once I slowed it down and found that sweet rebound spot it was pretty damn easy. Especially when compared to the epileptic seizure it appeared I was having when I first tried it without paying attention to the rebound location of the bag!
                      Yes, that "sweet spot" on the belly is particularly important when reversing the fist direct, hitting the bag in the Front Fist Roll (F-Roll) in an upward direction. IF you are a hare too low on the bag you can easily jam the bag up into the swivel. If you mis-hit the bag a bit punching in a "downward" direction (the normal way), the mis-hit just pulls the bag downward on the swivel, which is no big deal...but if you mis-hit a bit when you are rolling upwards, you can easily drive the bag upwards into the swivel, kinking the connection and causing a "fail", or at least a clanking of the ball upwards in the housing. I find myself really having to concentrate on this move to pull it off with any certainty. My brain still tells me I am moving backwards when I do this...
                      Speed Bag

                      Put a little Rhythm in YOUR workout!
                      *attendee: Every SB gathering so far!
                      The Quest Continues...
                      Hoping for another Gathering...


                      sigpic

                      The Art of the Bag

                      Comment

                      • bbally
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2013
                        • 121

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Speedbag View Post
                        I find myself really having to concentrate on this move to pull it off with any certainty. My brain still tells me I am moving backwards when I do this...
                        I have punched myself more than once working on this stuff!

                        Even though the book says take off glasses, I did not and they went flying. Occasionally a pair of ear buds gives its life to the pursuit of this crazy obsession.
                        sgt
                        USMC 79-85


                        Thanks to all who continue to serve... and to those that answered the call in the past!

                        Comment

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