Shoulder issue

[baggins]

In addition to the good thread about elbow pain, where AK chimed in with his story about a screwed up elbow, or two , I would like to hear you all about shoulder problems. I have recently experienced some nagging murmurs (not really pain) in my left shoulder, when I have bagged hard practicing double strikes linked. I some times go on for minutes (only stopped by mis hits), and it is then I feel this in the shoulder. I go back to some basic FCP, and then calls it a day...
I was wondering if the double strikes are to hard to do for my shoulders, or if I can do them in an other manner
If the thing continues after I have put them aside for some weeks, maybe they are not for me after all, joint problems and possibly surgery is not what I want. Any inputs or similar experiences?
My elbows are fine though

[novaspeedbagger]

I'd have it checked out by the Doc to be safe. I once had some knee pain after finishing the fall season racquetball league and it wasn't just normal pain, so I had my doc check it out. He said no need for surgery just some physical therapy for the stabilizing muscles int leg and hip regions and presto my aches were gone. It was just an imbalance due to atrophy in that area caused from acute leaditis (laziness) in the previous year of my life. He prescribed 6 weeks of physical therapy and now all is well. I was thankful that he cleared things up for me and that I didn't continue to the point of permanent injury.

[Tim]

In addition to the good thread about elbow pain, where AK chimed in with his story about a screwed up elbow, or two , I would like to hear you all about shoulder problems. I have recently experienced some nagging murmurs (not really pain) in my left shoulder, when I have bagged hard practicing double strikes linked. I some times go on for minutes (only stopped by mis hits), and it is then I feel this in the shoulder. I go back to some basic FCP, and then calls it a day...

This isn't an attempt at an internet diagnosis, because that is really hard to do, however, there are a number of things it can be from simple to complex:

1. Have you ever had any shoulder issues before in any other sport or activity?

2. How long have you been bagging and how much do you bag daily/weekly (... are you rushing in "too much too soon" before all your connective tissues are up to the task?) or perhaps is "overuse" setting in?

3. The pain occurs while performing that particular strike, and then subsides?

4. Or is it a general dull ache that continues long afterwards ? could be impingement, to which all human beings are prone due to our physical structure. Your description of "murmurs" makes me think impingement. It doesn't necessarily hurt during, but gets worse afterwards and thens subsides. Ice can help a lot immediately, and longer term rotator cuff strengthening.

5. What size/weight bag are you punching on? I haven't hit a 10x7 in years... the weight and size make it more pounding on your joints. Smaller bag = lesser forces. I normally hit 6x4, 7x4, and 8x5 size bags, which are a significant difference from 10x7 and the heavier 9x6 models.

6. How old are you? your shoulders and joints in general in your 30s will not be as robust as in your 20s or teens (speaking from personal experience I'm 38 - in my 20s I worked out 3 hours a day in a boxing gym 3-4 days a week - I could only dream of that now...). There is a reason most pro athletes are retired by age 40 ...

Some general things to try: Take 2 weeks completely off. Ice the affected region twice daily. Start some general rotator cuff rehab/strengthening 2 or 3 times a week (search 7 minute rotator cuff solution for a great example). Start back in slow and easy and ramp up over a number of weeks. Does pain come back? If so , consider seeing a doc (if it's bad enough) ... OR simply drop the offending technique from your repertoire (there's so many moves you can do under the board, nobody is ever going to notice something you don't do).

I was wondering if the double strikes are to hard to do for my shoulders, or if I can do them in an other manner
If the thing continues after I have put them aside for some weeks, maybe they are not for me after all, joint problems and possibly surgery is not what I want. Any inputs or similar experiences?
My elbows are fine though

I have some degree of impingement. I throw ice bags on my shoulders after I work the bag, even if my shoulders don't hurt. I also don't bag for 4 hours straight. I keep it to 90 minutes tops. So far, this has been a long term, sustainable solution. I did have shoulder surgery in 2007 for a torn labrum. They also took off a "bone spur" as well (left shoulder). I suspect my right shoulder has a similar spur.

My only brush with elbow pain was when I was doing crossfit and bagging. Crossfit involves an insane (IMO) amount of overhead work and pullups/chinups. It's hard on shoulders and elbows. The pullups are done "kipping" style - i.e. with momentum so you do LOTS of them. That was a quick path to elbow tendinitis. Any kind of elbow strike with the arm bent would aggravate it even further. I had to drastically reduce pullups/chinups, ditched crossfit alltogether and 9 months later the pain was gone and it has stayed that way ever since.

Anything done obsessively is going to bring you into overuse injuries. I decided a long time ago that baggin' is what I want to do... and if it means I have to sacrifice the shoulders over the very long term... so be it. But I take steps to try and avoid that.

[Bagster]

I'd have it checked out by the Doc to be safe. I once had some knee pain after finishing the fall season racquetball league and it wasn't just normal pain, so I had my doc check it out. He said no need for surgery just some physical therapy for the stabilizing muscles int leg and hip regions and presto my aches were gone. It was just an imbalance due to atrophy in that area caused from acute leaditis (laziness) in the previous year of my life. He prescribed 6 weeks of physical therapy and now all is well. I was thankful that he cleared things up for me and that I didn't continue to the point of permanent injury.

Agreed totally!!! See your Dr.

I just had (7 weeks ago) surgery on my shoulder because I had bone spurs in there ( maybe what you have going on) that were causing minor tears (causing pain and didn't know what it was) and didn't want it to become a major tear. So basicly a preventative maintanace type of surgery (I'm to young, 48 , and to active, and not ready to give in to age to leave it as is and do less).

When they did the MRI previous to the surgery there was some evedence of minor arthritus in the a/c joint (maybe what you have going on) so when they were in there they also removed a small portion of each side of the joint to allow more room for movement.

I didn't , and still don't enjoy going through this but I will soon be able to exercise with less of a chance of major injury, and because of this surgery I am now, and can continue to be a bagger . Lov'n every minute of it.

[baggins]

Thanks for replies guys. Especially you Tim. Really usefull stuff.

First off, it´s not bad enough to go to a doc. It is gone a day or two after the particular strike session. Second the doc would send me to a PT, which I do not trust (have been to two over the years with different problems, back and knee) It didnt work. What worked was doing something about myself i.e. generel fitness, stretching and exercises.

Tim hit the nail on the head by stating that overhead work (pullups) could be the problem. I too have worked out way to much on pulling exercises (which I have stopped atm). It helps.

I dont bag much compared to some of you guys it is mostly 15 min or so 3-4 x a week. I like it, and I dont intend a certain strike should ruin it for me.

I will lay off with double strikes a couple weeks, and then test it. If it flares up, ill ditch it. No biggie. Rather that, than give up speedbagging

For info, my favorite bag is a light Lonsdale small sized peanut bag.Its fast and easy to hit with min. force. I own a heavy old Everlast, but I never use it, b/c of its extreme sluggishness and heavyness. My sessions are not workouts, I do it b/c I like it. Oh btw, Im 38 too

I think I got something here to continue with

[Brother Cavefish]

i pulled mine out 20 something years ago from heavy incline dumbells------ but as the years went by it just came every so often i can do benchs/dips and pushups decent enough, my whole body hurts anyway, hard life i guess-----anywho mine started popping up when i was doing forward C-fist rollovers and i think it was because i was tensing up my body while bagging, kind of like an bagging "isometric"- not good for me, now i try to relax my shoulders and just let the hands roll------------- but thats my story------

[Speedbag]

In addition to the good thread about elbow pain, where AK chimed in with his story about a screwed up elbow, or two ,
I would like to hear from you all about shoulder problems. .....

HA! shoulder problems. No, you don't want to hear about my shoulder problems. Suffice it to say I have had five (5) shoulder operations over the past 14 years. I'm contemplating at least one more,but I've probably reached the point of diminishing returns. I've spent at least 3 or 4 years in assorted physical therapy for the shoulder, elbow, neck, knee and foot surgeries. My biggest regret is not knowing at 40 what I know at 60. Had I known, I would have forced myself to drop off about half of the time and activities I spent endlessly driving my body and joints beyond it's limit's. Moderation was not a word or lifestyle I lived by choice, and now nature enforces.

Tim and others are correct in dropping off a lot of the overhead activities. The human shoulder is simply not designed to sustain a lot of continuous,forceful overhead activity. Many of the basic fitness activities (lifts) that people do for the shoulder are detrimental to it's mechanics, and will eventually lead to unnatural wear and chronic pain. ESPECIALLY if your shoulder is already compromised by chronic injury or surgical intervention, which changes the mechanics. That is not my personal opinion, but the opinion of several athletic trainers and sports physical therapists that enjoyed taking my money for therapy.

I have recently experienced some nagging murmurs (not really pain) in my left shoulder, when I have bagged hard practicing double strikes linked. I some times go on for minutes (only stopped by mis hits), and it is then I feel this in the shoulder.

This could really depend on the what you mean by "hard double strikes" and what part of the shoulder is hurting when you do it. For me the most shoulder intense activity is the Downward Double Elbow Strike with linking to a reverse single punch. If you have
deeper internal labrum tears or other cartilage wear than these can be really painful.The raised arm for positioning the downward elbow can also cause or aggravate anterior impingement.. I suggest you try to isolate what movements cause any specific pain. Also, try doing a speed bag workout and NOT doing the movement that you think hurts. Does it feel the same during and after hitting? Can you isolate the "murmer" of pain. Is it sharp and specific to a movement or area of the shoulder, or is it a diffuse, aching pain that radiates around the joint? All of this will help any medical professional identify the problem. Of course an MRI with contrast or Magnetic resonance arthrography can definitively identify the problem(s).
For the record, I've three of these: two on left shoulder, one on the right.
I would suggest you avoid driving yourself to the point of needing one, but I always thought I should "just work through the pain" also. I've got many sets of these pictures chronicling my repetitive overuse. (hours of lifting, punching, swinging, pulling etc. every day.) I mostly remember those days for I had to give that up several years ago. My shoulder activities have been greatly curtailed.

I was wondering if the double strikes are to hard to do for my shoulders, or if I can do them in an other manner
If the thing continues after I have put them aside for some weeks, maybe they are not for me after all, joint problems and possibly surgery is not what I want. Any inputs or similar experiences?
My elbows are fine though

Again, that really depends on what you mean by "double strikes". Do you mean just Double Punches or Double Elbow Strikes. For Outward-Double Elbow Strikes (O-DES) you can modify it a bit by turning from your torso to assist positioning the elbow in front of the bag, rather than pulling your arm across your chest, which strains the shoulder a bit more. You might also try to modify your ready position a bit by dropping your elbows from the raised position, which can aggravate any impingement symptoms. As you get better at front - reverse linking you can also drop your elbow a bit and do this also. The raised elbow does make it easier, but if it hurts the shoulder you can learn to do it with a lower elbow position. I don't recommend learning it that way however.
If you notice the pain continues for several weeks and just won't go away, from rest or home rehab, I suggest your get a shoulder specialist opinion. It really sucks being old with painful shoulders, so anything you can do to prevent that will pay dividends later.

Hope this helps.

[baggins]

Thanks Alan. I know you´ve been trough alot. And the thing I need to understand now, is what you stress : do not do exessive work that hurts and do not work through pain. I have done these mistakes in other aspects of sports ( to much pulling. Too much long distance running). It´s just that this shoulder thing has kind of crept up upon me. It´s not pain but discomfort. Of course I need to stop when something hurts, I´ve learned that the hard way. It´s just that I´m relatively new to bagging, and thought of some inputs from you folks. I got more than that. This forum is the greatest

Btw it´s of course double punches (not elbow strikes since I can´t do them).

[Speedbag]

Thanks Alan. I know you´ve been trough alot. And the thing I need to understand now, is what you stress : do not do exessive work that hurts and do not work through pain. I have done these mistakes in other aspects of sports ( to much pulling. Too much long distance running). It´s just that this shoulder thing has kind of crept up upon me. It´s not pain but discomfort. Of course I need to stop when something hurts, I´ve learned that the hard way. It´s just that I´m relatively new to bagging, and thought of some inputs from you folks. I got more than that. This forum is the greatest

Btw it´s of course double punches (not elbow strikes since I can´t do them).

That "discomfort" is a warning sign, and often hard to decipher. Especially if it hurts only while doing the activity and not later. But if it starts becoming a noticeable aching hours after the activity, or at night making sleep difficult, than it's probably an issue other than training pain.

OK: This is an important topic, for the shoulder is the MAIN joint affected, (elbow probably second) by hitting the speed bag. I will tell you the result of several hours with a Shoulder Specialist (Dr. Wayne, "Buzz" Burkhead), and various discussions we have had about speed bag motions and actions on the shoulder, as well as some time spent with Clinical Athletic Trainers during 4 or 5 rehab referrals. They often have models of the shoulder, skeletons etc. to highlight exactly what happens when we do what we do. It may take a while to read, so get a cup of your favorite brew if you're interested. As mentioned earlier, I have had 5 shoulder operations, countless steroid injections and a few years worth of physical therapy - and have been involved in detailed discussions with these folks about all the movements I use when hitting the speed bag and it's affect on the shoulder. I hope it may help you if needed.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hitting the speed bag is a very shoulder intense activity, particularly the way "we" (present company accepted) hit it with a raised elbow. The raised elbow (up close to parallel....) really helps for linking or passing the fists through the bag to the other sides. It allows the fist movements to move more or less straight and catch the bag in the proper point of the rebound. Try doing this a lot with a lowered elbow and you will find the upper arm moving up and down constantly. Keeping the elbow up makes it a much more efficient movement, particular at high speed on a small bag. But the raised elbow can compress and aggravate the area or structures around and under the acromion. This picture on the Left, of the shoulder with the elbow held up and outward (not raised completely but high enough for this explanation. actually it is pretty close to speed bag stance position) shows how this position can compress the tissues underneath. That is not a problem in the younger or healthy shoulder, but add in a few tendon tears, bursitis and a bone spur or two around the acromion edge from age and overuse, and you can easily see how this position will become painful. This is a very common problem by the way for most sports that constantly require the "arms up" position or repetitive overhead activity. This area just under the acromion where the rotator cuff tendons, particular the supraspinatus, is the first major area that can effected by the hitting the speed bag.

The second major shoulder issue in speed bagging, again with the constantly raised elbow, is that the humeral head ( the "ball" of the ball and socket joint. It's the top of your upper arm that fits into the glenoid joint) shown in this picture will constantly rotate and sheer within the socket. When we raise the elbow up close to parallel and do "circles from the elbow", the upper arm may remain pretty still in position but it is constantly rotating and twisting as the fist "circles", which is really an up and down cranking of the lower arm as the fist goes out, hits, drops down and returns to the chin.

Try it now: hold your arm up close to parallel and do a slow circling motion, like doing repetitive Front Circle Punches ( FCP x4-5). Notice the upper arm, (bicep) twists up and down slightly. On the inside of the joint, the humeral head is also twisting slightly inside on the inner glenoid surface and labral tissue. Not a big deal in a healthy shoulder, but throw in a few "sports injuries" such as muscle tendon tears, bone spurs, muscle weakness and perhaps labral tears (thinking of Tim on this one...) and you can see how long speed bag workouts could aggravate that area also. Don't forget the humeral head is also covered with cartilage and when that sheers away with high repetitive use and injury it also complicates the issue. One last concern is the Long Head of the Bicep Tendons, which runs along the front of the upper arm in a groove to attach to the labrum. As the upper arm bones twists and moves, these can be irritated also. Raising and lowering (extending and flexing) the arm forward (punching upwards, or hitting head level on a heavy bag can irritate the biceps tendon as it constantly contracts within the groove.) Heavy Punchers often have bicep tendon (front shoulder area) pain.

With the exception of some Elbow Striking techniques (mainly downward and Outward), speed bagging does not stress the shoulder as far as range of motion and to my knowledge has never caused a dislocation. There isn't enough shoulder range of motion to risk major muscle tears, so you probably want tear a deltoid or pectoral muscle hitting the speed bag, but the connective tissues within the joint do take a bit of a beating due to the mechanics of swing and arm position. And remember, we don't hit just 50 times and go home. I'm guessing my own "normal" speed bag workouts, (not the ones I do now, the ones I did "back in the day" when I could and didn't know any better ) would find 3 or 4 hours and maybe 5-7,000 punches, arms up, circling fists etc. Day after Day, month after month. These are extremes, but a speed bag addiction can lead to thinking it's all OK. And if you have healthy shoulders it probably is. But age and arthritis, small tendon injuries or bursa problems can change things. If you start having chronic "discomfort" or "nagging, aching pain" around the clavicular area on top of the top front area of the shoulder after speed bag workouts, or if your shoulder(s) hurt and speed bagging is your main activity, you might consider making some changes. Changes like a good, full range of motion warm up, perhaps a time limited workout, some light stretching afterward and like Tim advocates, some general shoulder/arm icing afterward. Also consider all your other activities. If your doing hours of upper body weight training, heavy bag pounding etc., (which actually compress the humeral head into the socket, causing a more grind force than speed bagging) then consider that also. Doing ALL of those 4-5 times per week for months or years on end is fun when your young, and you'll remember it when your old.

I have also lowered my elbow positions a bit when hitting, and also lowered the bag to allow my fists to align to the belly with a lower elbow. I can get the bag belly to about clavicle height, then I don't have to raise the arm up so high to allow the fists to pass straight through. The only problem is this requires me to lower the board to a point just over my head, (hitting my hair sometimes....) and that makes doing downward elbows a bit more challenging. When I feel one coming on I will bend my knees a bit to lower my head from the board and let the raised fist miss the board. The best way to envision this is to look at the banner on my website: Speedbagcentral.com. Notice how high the board is over my head and my upper arms angle a bit upward. That is an everlast model 4200 9x6 bag with the belly at my mouth. Now I would lower the board to bring the belly down below my chin, allowing my upper arms to set lower and not raise the elbow as high. I fought that change for a long time, but now it's a required adaption for me. Here's a funny thing my doctor said last year: (He's a friend and a bit of a wise cracker): "You've spent over 35 years hitting the speed bag with your elbows up, grinding all those tissues and surfaces together for hours on end. Your shoulders are asking me to tell you to lower your elbows for a while..."

Didn't mean to get off on a rant on that, but I've spent way too many hours and dollars having my own shoulders examined and reconstructed to let the issue pass by. Speed baggers need to understand how our favorite activity affects the major joints involved and how to detect when things aren't right. I detected but didn't pay attention for way too long.

By the way: I don't blame my shoulder issues on the speed bag or speed bag punching. I blame it on me for not paying more attention and continually overdoing it, and other activities way past the point of fitness requirements.

[baggins]

Once again, thanks Alan. This is very usefull to me Lowering the bag a bit, seems good for me. But I sometimes knick my knuckles on the edge of the drum I must be carefull...

[paranday]

...Lowering the bag a bit, seems good for me. But I sometimes knick my knuckles on the edge of the drum I must be carefull...

Dude, that's why we Klingons have spikes on the edge of our drums. QI'yaH!

[Speedbag]

Once again, thanks Alan. This is very usefull to me Lowering the bag a bit, seems good for me. But I sometimes knick my knuckles on the edge of the drum I must be carefull...

You can always bend your knees a bit to drop your head level and give you fist a bit more room to clear the lower edge of the board. Drop a bit lower just before you move to position the arm for the technique that makes the fist hit the board. It's a very subtle move and hardly noticeable.