Future of Powermill

[jumpcannon]

Well my friends i am at a crossroads here. I talked to my waterjet guy and subbing any work out is $$$$$$$$$$$. He is even giving me a fair deal. Its amazing how much these shops charge for work (unless your doing thousands). If i went that route i would have to consider running 300 at a time and thats big $$$$$$$$$$$ out of pocket up front. So i have 5 that i am gonna make 2 piece as an experiment. I am considering threading into the base, or slip fitting into the base with a retainer flange machined into a matching pocket. Then when the swivel is bolted to the board it will secure it all together. Either way would work but there is something that takes away from the feel of a solid one piece. My gut tells me to stick with a solid design. Maybe just tweak a few things to get the job done a little quicker with no sacrifice in quality. I kinda dont want to make a "production" swivel (but if i did quality would still be priority). I already redisigned the ball a tad bit to eliminate a blend line in the middle of the ball (thats if anybody even noticed). It has no effect in perfomance since only half the ball makes contact anyway. But it annoyed me. Another thing is cost. Making hand made swivels are not at all possible to be sold at a high production price. But money is not what fuels me. Its the priciple that i am sick of things being manufactured overseas while we have the ability to manufacture things in our own country and take pride in what we do. So that is why i take a hit. Its not the cost of materials that is hitting me....its the amount of labor i put into these. People tell me to charge alot more. NO....its just a speedbag swivel. I wont charge top dollar....but in time price may have to increase a tad bit to justify even doing these. So i think i am gonna stick with the solid one piece design for now and try to make each run quicker with same quality. I would way rather put out 30 swivels a month than 300 swivels of a lesser quality. I pretty much just make this stuff up as i go along and i have no idea where i am really heading with this. I am gonna make metal chips start to fly soon. But in all sincerness I want to personally thank everybody's reviews and comments. THANK YOU ALL!!!!!!! Now bag on!

[StevieMac]

The slip fit sounds like a really good idea to me. You would have the exact same quality but just less metal to remove on the lathe. Plus no threads to cut. All sounds good to me.

I think we all can appreciate the amount of work you put into these and we definitely all appreciate it but I think you have to consider either charging more or reducing the labor with a two piece unit. You deserve to be compensated fairly for your efforts.

Just my two cents….

[Avadia]

And THANK YOU jumpcannon, for providing something to your friends and acquaintances that has been lacking for many years -- a QUALITY heavy-duty all-steel ball/hook swivel made in the USA! That means an awful lot to all the serious speed-baggers on this board, as you well know. I am just a beginner, but even I recognize the value of what you have done.

As for the cost, well, I could pay $20 bucks for a cheap swivel made in China, and replace it every few years. Or I could pay $45 or more for one of your swivels and probably never have to replace it in my life. Personally, I prefer quality over quantity. Think about it another way: A good board is $200 or more. A good bag is $40 or more. The swivel takes most of the punishment and is responsible for a good portion of the hitting performance of a board/bag combo. So if you are a serious bagger, it makes perfect sense to pay a little more to get the best swivel you can buy. And trust me, right now yours is the best swivel on the market. I would have no problem paying $60 or more for another one of your swivels. I think they are that good.

I like the idea of the two-piece slip fit, but the one-piece seems to work fine too.

[SpeedBagAtaraxis]

I agree with the fact that the sound of one-piece is nicer but you are doing everyone who would like one of these works of art a HUUUUUGGGGEEE service. I am definitely willing to pay extra for this swivel if it means making your life easier and helping out. My opinion....keep the quality of the swivel exactly where it is and charge the price that makes this worth your while Jumpcannon! Like I said before you are doing Me and Everyone else who wants one of these a huge favor, it should be just as beneficial to you as all who are getting one of those bad boys. Hope everything works out! You da man! BAG ON!

SpeedBagAtaraxis

[jumpcannon]

I am gonna honor all pre-orders the price i told them. This is still experimental stages. It will eventually evolve into a working solution.

[novaspeedbagger]

What can I do to help?

JC, I'm damn proud to be an American too my friend. Now, I am no business genius, and I don't intend to volunteer anyone else's time, talent or money. But we have the means in this forum community to co-op and make something happen. For one, I would be willing to help with labor but the challenge is distance between us. For instance, if you could teach one of us members to produce the S-hooks and ship them to you or some one you recruit (like an project manager) that person could group the parts until they are ready to be assembled and shipped. You could cut a bit of labor that way. It's just an example, but with your vision for what you want to accomplish for your self, and maybe with others, things could grow and quality would still be top priority.

I hope I don't come across in the wrong way with this, but I believe people are willing to help out.

I appreciate your efforts so much that I'll promote this swivel because it's Top Shelf. And you are a man of your word. You said something was going to happen and you made it happen!


This world could use a little more of that! I just sent $100 to your Paypal account as a good faith gesture. In the past, people helped me when I least expected it. This is just a way I can do a little to help someone else by paying it forward

There aren't many American Icons left.......Harley Davidson?

Bag on and Swivel up!

[jumpcannon]

Wow Kerry. Right now i am pretty much without words. I honestly cant thank you enough for the gift. The $100 you sent me and the responses people have been giving me mean way more than if these things sold for $80 a piece. I work for the railroad and our freight trains are pulling less tons than ever before. People are struggling for work, holidays dont have that good traditional feel, corporate greed and shipping work to china is killing us. I think this country has good traditional americans left but its definately getting on the thin side. Glad to know you and your a hell of a guy! Thank you!

[jumpcannon]

One more thing.....PLEASE NO MORE GIFTS from anyone. I have been thanked more than i can handle right now. LOL

[Speedbag]

And THANK YOU jumpcannon, for providing something to your friends and acquaintances that has been lacking for many years -- a QUALITY heavy-duty all-steel ball/hook swivel made in the USA! That means an awful lot to all the serious speed-baggers on this board, as you well know. I am just a beginner, but even I recognize the value of what you have done.

As for the cost, well, I could pay $20 bucks for a cheap swivel made in China, and replace it every few years. Or I could pay $45 or more for one of your swivels and probably never have to replace it in my life. Personally, I prefer quality over quantity. Think about it another way: A good board is $200 or more. A good bag is $40 or more. The swivel takes most of the punishment and is responsible for a good portion of the hitting performance of a board/bag combo. So if you are a serious bagger, it makes perfect sense to pay a little more to get the best swivel you can buy. And trust me, right now yours is the best swivel on the market. I would have no problem paying $60 or more for another one of your swivels. I think they are that good.

I like the idea of the two-piece slip fit, but the one-piece seems to work fine too.

Indeed, spoken like a seasoned professional. Each of the three pieces in a speed bag set up is vital and a well made reliable and accurate swivel is a must. The bag and board seldom show wear over time like the swivel, which I think bears most of the continous movement forces.

The Powermill swivels that I received are simply AWESOME in every way. But who is to say the quality wouldn't be just as good if it was a two piece, or several ounces lighter, or somehow changed to make it easier or more cost efficient to produce. You are facing the classic problem of supply and demand, which I understand completely when I was at the same position in publishing The Speed Bag Bible. You have to produce a certain amount to make it cost effect per unit, and without a "deep pocket" to help pay the huge upfront production costs, it's difficult to justify. I hit the wall when the initial printing cost came back as $15,000.00, printed and delivered.


The other answer is to make and keep it a custom made, hand crafted work of art, available to those who recognize the quality of such a product, and appreciate the singular effort it takes to make it. You can see the same theory in the purchase of a "Samurai Sword". You can get an inexpensive production line version at a reduced price, that looks good but won't hold up to serious cutting, Or you can get a much higher quality, limited edition, hand made Thaitsuki Nihonto Sword. When buying an individually made weapon, or swivel, I think the higher price reflects true quality that might not be needed by all, but for those certain few who demand nothing less, it will be a must. Particularly IF they want a functional ballhook.

Obviously a person doesn't need to spend $30-40 bucks on a swivel, but neither do they need to spend $80-90 dollars on a bag - yet plenty do. I don't have a problem putting my $12.00 bag on a $30 dollar swivel if I know that 300,000 punches later that swivel is still ready to go. And by all accounts, this swivel will. The fact that it is American Made by an American the old fashion way, Mano Y Steelo, is even better. Perhaps no biggee to our foreign friends, but a source of pride on my board I assure you.

Your Powermill swivel is the third custom made swivel I have been priviledged to hit and as for now YOU are the Masamune of the swivel world. I have no problem believing that this swivel could be a serious upper end addition to any boxing equipment website.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I I can help you, let me know.

[Avadia]

I am curious about something from a design standpoint:

Would it be possible to cut a groove inside the socket that the ball sits in, in order to place a ring of ball bearings in there, and have the ball actually sit on the ball bearings rather than directly on the rim of the metal housing? If possible, I wonder whether this would actually reduce the friction of the ball movement, and make the swivel even faster, more responsive and slightly quieter.

Just a thought I had. Any thoughts or ideas from anyone on that concept?

[Biff]

SpeedyTommyT's "psycho swivel" does exactly that. That is the closest to a frcitionless swivel that I have seen or hit on. Do a search on "psycho swivel."

BTW, this is not to take anything away from jump's phenomenal swivel. Both are great in their own right.

[Tim]

The spirit and camaraderie here is just amazing... our community is unique and I continue to be amazed at the kindness and attitudes that people who've never met (yet) display towards each other!

Jump - The Powermill swivel is your creation. We appreciate whatever you end up doing to support the community. Nobody expects you to slave away for hours and hours and not make some $$$. Charge what you have to. Make them the way YOU want to ... it's more than a swivel, it's functional artwork, hand crafted. There is clearly a demand out there and people will pay for it. If you are enjoying making them, then make more, and make them how you think they ought to be made. Most of us probably don't understand the time and effort that goes into these...these appeal to the hard core speed bagger so the audience is probably limited. It may not make sense to mass produce. I say continue on hand made, charging what make sense for you. If it gets old, or is too much of a time sink, then make it known and people will understand.

On a semi-related note, I'd like to see somebody take one of the next batch and have some sort of ornate design put on it. That would be cool.

[PIEFURZ]

My two cents

JC has done a great thing. It's good to see an American making a product that a select few are so impactionate about the quality. I suggest KISS, Keep It Simple Stupid. How many cheap products do we buy now days that are filled with useless features and are built like crap so we through them away when they break? Concentrate on what a swivel needs to do and work out the bugs on that. It doesn't need to be fast at being changed out to be a good swivel. One piece socket bolted thru the board keeps it solid and less costly to make. Adding features takes focus away from the quality of what it needs to do. Make it the best swivel ever and you will never want to change it out. There are twenty some of these in the hands of baggers of various skill levels. Give it your best test and give it honest feedback. Remember KISS and this will become the best swivel ever.

[fingers]

The spirit and camaraderie here is just amazing... our community is unique and I continue to be amazed at the kindness and attitudes that people who've never met (yet) display towards each other!

Jump - The Powermill swivel is your creation. We appreciate whatever you end up doing to support the community. Nobody expects you to slave away for hours and hours and not make some $$$. Charge what you have to. Make them the way YOU want to ... it's more than a swivel, it's functional artwork, hand crafted. There is clearly a demand out there and people will pay for it. If you are enjoying making them, then make more, and make them how you think they ought to be made. Most of us probably don't understand the time and effort that goes into these...these appeal to the hard core speed bagger so the audience is probably limited. It may not make sense to mass produce. I say continue on hand made, charging what make sense for you. If it gets old, or is too much of a time sink, then make it known and people will understand.

On a semi-related note, I'd like to see somebody take one of the next batch and have some sort of ornate design put on it. That would be cool.

Well said Tim!! i think you have put into words everything the whole forum is thinking i definitely appreciate the time and effort Jumpcannon has put into these works of art!! and i don't own one (yet)!!

[jumpcannon]

All of your feedback has been excellent. I am gonna run 40 starting monday. Probably gonna take a few weeks at the minimum. I got my steel cut and ready for pickup. I am gonna change the dimensions a tad bit. Very little noticable. I do have an idea i am working on after these 40. I am gonna have to evolve into a 2 piece design to eliminate labor. And i got a way to make em really really cool. I am experimenting with different ball material (brass, bronze, oilite, etc.) but really what piefurz says.....keep it simple. I thought about ingravings. I also thought about a simple letter "P" hand stamped on the back side. Anyway.....I got some baggin to catch up on!