Best way to teach fist rolling

[mikerehab]

I am interested in members' opinions about the best way to teach fist rolling. For beginner's I like to use the inverted V that Alan discusses in his book, and I tell the student to crowd the bag and keep their hands up so it does not hit them in the face. I tell them to go fist over fist and overlap about 1/3 of the fists. This seems to work fine to get to the basic roll.

But, it is the next phase of fist rolling where I need help with the teaching method. This is the point at which the student wants to develop high speed. Fist rolling for maximum speed actually shouldn't have the fists rolling over the fists but the fists should be side by side. The smaller the circle made by the fists, the faster the roll. In fact, I think the fastest roll comes from motions of the fists that are actually more like alternating short chops, then circles. I find this difficult to explain. Reverse fist rolling is actually a chopping motion as well, rather than true fist-over-fist rolling.

A last issue I have is that fist rolling is easier when you crowd the bag, but many of my students are in wheel chairs with very severe injuries and cannot control their torso, and they would prefer to roll from a distance so that they can do other techniques in the same sequence. To crowd the bag, they essentially have to roll the chair in, and keep their hands up or it will hit them in the face. When they are in the chair-rolled-in position, they can roll great, but that is all they can do as they are too far in to do basic fist and elbow techniques. Ideas for controling the bag --when the student is not crowding it-- would be appreciated.

In any event, any opinions on effective teaching methods for advanced fist rolling are much appreciated, and if any of you are wheel chair athletes your insights would also be helpful to me.

Mike (in Seattle)

[Speedbag]

Hey Mike,

Good to hear from you. Glad to know that you are still on the front lines of speed bag rehab. I think you are asking two separate questions. (1) improving Front Fist Rolling Speed and (2) utilizing it with other techniques.

I am interested in members' opinions about the best way to teach fist rolling. For beginner's I like to use the inverted V that Alan discusses in his book, and I tell the student to crowd the bag and keep their hands up so it does not hit them in the face. I tell them to go fist over fist and overlap about 1/3 of the fists. This seems to work fine to get to the basic roll.

you are correct in that the more control you have of the fists, and the faster you can Roll, the less you need to Roll the fists "over" each other, and the fist will actually separate until they are moving "next to each other" rather than over each other. With experience you can actually front Fist Roll pretty well without the highly held elbow "V", and do it with the fists extended out from the body (or, while standing back away from the bag). But speed will be limited from that position. Personally, I find if I want maximum speed from a Roll, I hold the elbows up and lean in. This is just a more efficient position for the technique. I imagine A person in a wheelchair will have to find happy medium of speed and control within the limitation of the distance of the chair to the bag. I don't know how you could compensate for the limited torso strength of a T8 or higher spinal level injuries.

.....A last issue I have is that fist rolling is easier when you crowd the bag, but many of my students are in wheel chairs with very severe injuries and cannot control their torso, and they would prefer to roll from a distance so that they can do other techniques in the same sequence. To crowd the bag, they essentially have to roll the chair in, and keep their hands up or it will hit them in the face. When they are in the chair-rolled-in position, they can roll great, but that is all they can do as they are too far in to do basic fist and elbow techniques. Ideas for controling the bag --when the student is not crowding it-- would be appreciated.

In any event, any opinions on effective teaching methods for advanced fist rolling are much appreciated, and if any of you are wheel chair athletes your insights would also be helpful to me.

Mike (in Seattle)

Again, this second issue of transitioning to other techniques may require a trade off between Fist Rolling speed and position. When standing, there are many subtle torso changes and adjustments that are made automatically that are not possible, or at least are much more difficult, from a wheelchair, particularly for someone with a SCI.
Even without torso strength or balance issues, I found that same problem when hitting extensively in a wheelchair. (:20sec to :32sec). There is no way that I found to quickly adjust the distance, moving back or in, from the bag. With the wheels locked, I would lean a lot, mostly back, but for someone with torso and balance problems that would either be very difficult or simply not possible.

I haven't personally worked with enough SCI patients of various levels to know what help to offer. Hopefully there are some silent members in wheel chairs that can offer some insight.

[mikerehab]

Fist rolling

Alan,
That is very helpful. I only have worked with the patients near the beginning of their rehab, and they are inpatients and usually they are very weak physically, with poor torso control. By the time they are stronger, they are not working with me. I have only rarely worked with outpatients or patients with good torso strength. It is the subtle positioning and adjustments you talk about that they cannot usually do. To teach them fist rolling, I wheel them in very tight to the bag so the bag is at 45-60 degree angle, and I have them keep their hands up, otherwise the bag will hit them in the face. I have them start the roll from that position, and it usually goes very well. They are usually pretty excited because from that position, if you keep your hands up and roll, you sometimes can get a good in-control roll on your first or second try. The problem with that position is obvious: All you can do is roll. You cannot combine it with other techniques. It is not easy to then move them away from the bag, have them extend their arms and have them roll from a distance that will also allow them to do the other techniques. A roll from that distance usually means loss of control of the bag.

Incidentally, for patients who are very weak, elbow techniques are great for rehab, but this also often involves positioning the chair optimally for striking a single technique. The ability to hit elbows from either arm often happens later in the rehab of a serious injury.

Lastly, I cannot tell you how much it means to these patients to receive the DVDs of Rhythm and Rehab (and the Speed Bag Bible books) that you so generously gave me. It means alot to the patients and their families.

You are really helping alot of these kids through your thoughtful and thorough teaching methods.

Mike

[Speedbag]

Alan,
That is very helpful. I only have worked with the patients near the beginning of their rehab, and they are inpatients and usually they are very weak physically, with poor torso control. By the time they are stronger, they are not working with me. I have only rarely worked with outpatients or patients with good torso strength. It is the subtle positioning and adjustments you talk about that they cannot usually do. To teach them fist rolling, I wheel them in very tight to the bag so the bag is at 45-60 degree angle, and I have them keep their hands up, otherwise the bag will hit them in the face. I have them start the roll from that position, and it usually goes very well. They are usually pretty excited because from that position, if you keep your hands up and roll, you sometimes can get a good in-control roll on your first or second try. The problem with that position is obvious: All you can do is roll. You cannot combine it with other techniques. It is not easy to then move them away from the bag, have them extend their arms and have them roll from a distance that will also allow them to do the other techniques. A roll from that distance usually means loss of control of the bag.
Incidentally, for patients who are very weak, elbow techniques are great for rehab, but this also often involves positioning the chair optimally for striking a single technique. The ability to hit elbows from either arm often happens later in the rehab of a serious injury.

Lastly, I cannot tell you how much it means to these patients to receive the DVDs of Rhythm and Rehab (and the Speed Bag Bible books) that you so generously gave me. It means alot to the patients and their families.

You are really helping alot of these kids through your thoughtful and thorough teaching methods.

Mike

Hey Mike,

It is possible to Do a Front Fist Roll from a distance. I think the closer position to the bag and "V" of the arms makes it easier, more efficient and faster, but with practice one can move ( or roll in a chair) back from the bag. My concern for that wouldn't be bag control so much as loss of balance leaning forward. That coupled with reduce torso strength could set the weakened individual to fall forward out of the chair unless they had some type of shoulder harness to keep them upright. From my own practice in a wheel chair, I noticed I had to really stretch the arms across my body to get the outward elbow strikes in position. When standing we can easily twist the body or lean in the needed direction to almost eliminate pulling the arm across to position the elbow. But for someone with a weakened torso and the limits of a chair with locked wheels, the outward elbows will require pulling the hand across the body until the bicep just about touches the chin. If they have corresponding weakened arm adduction or weakened subscapularis or pectoralis strength from a higher cord injury it would be very difficult.

PM me if you need more books or video's. You may not know this, but there are members of this board who have silently sponsored such worthy efforts to use the speed bag to help others.