Advice re. vintage bags and platform

[Tony]

Hi all,

I've just bought a set of old boxing equipment including three speed bags and a platform mount. I don't know much about the history of these items so any information on their likely vintage, etc. will be appreciated.

Note that the set hasn't been delivered yet so I'm going by the vendor's descriptions of these items.

The bags are listed as:

4216 LEATHER BLACK BAG
EVERLAST GYRO BALANCED COWHIDE 4211
EVERLAST LARGE SPEED BAG

The speed bag platform consists of a 39" metal "wagon-wheel" arrangement with six spokes, attached to a wooden platform that seems to be intended to be screwed into a ceiling beam.

The only date I can attach to the set is that another item, a Lonnie Austin boxing head-guard, apparently dates from 1924.

Any ideas as to the approximate ages of the speed bags and the platform rig?

Also, am I correct in assuming that the "wagon wheel" would originally have supported a round wooden drum, or did some vintage rigs not use drums?

Thanks,

Tony

[Dutchman]

Okay lets see. The Everlast 4216, black leather with non welted seams correct? That would probably date from the late 1960's to early 1970's.It was the one that came in the striking bag sets that they sold then. The 4211, now there is a good buy if it's the one that was on eBay last week. That dates from at least the 1950's. I had my eye on that one, but something came up and I had to fore go bidding on it it. The Everlast "large" speed bag, without seeing it can't tell you much.
As far as the rebound ring, we've talked about them around here before. They only work with certain sized bags, and over time they have a tendency to wreck the belly of the bag. By the late 1970's Everlast stated in they instructions that came with their bags that the warrenty was null and void if used on one of these platforms (even though they sold them at one time).

[Tony]

Thanks for the tips. I'll post pictures of the bags and rebound ring when the set arrives (it's still in transit).

I don't think that the 4211 bag would have been on eBay last week, so the one you saw might still be there.

Interesting re. the rebound ring. So that would probably date it somewhere between 1920-1960s? I can see that that sort of point-specific impact would wear through bags pretty fast; does the ring have any positive or negative effect on the vibration problem?

Also, regarding the diameter of the ring relative to the bag; given the very wide span of the ring relative to most modern speed bag platforms, I'm assuming that the ring was intended to be used either with very large bags or with bags that were hung rather lower than modern speed bags, so that they could reach the ring. Am I on the right track?

Can you recommend any instructional books, etc. on how to train using rebound rings?

Thanks again.

[Dutchman]

When those rings were sold, the bags were larger, much larger than the ones sold today. What was considered a small bag then, is now being sold as a large or X larger now. As far as the vibration issue, I've only had very limited experience hitting with one, and from what I recalled there wasn't any improvement over what was a standard drum platform of the era. Those were made of glued up lumber, or some cases plywood, while the rings were usually tubular steel or steel bar stock rolled in to a ring, the latter would ususally coverd in a rubber sleeve. Particle board had not come into widespread use yet. The vibration issue is always determined by two things, how solid your rebound surface is, and how well it is braced.
As far as any instructional material that deals specifically with hitting the bag with a rebound ring, there might be some booklets that came with the sets that were sold by Sears (J.C.Higgens) Hutch (Hutchinson Sporting Goods) Spalding or some of the other firms that were actively selling these during that era. This would be something you would have to search eBay or some the used booksellers for.

[Speedbag]

Thanks for the tips. I'll post pictures of the bags and rebound ring when the set arrives (it's still in transit).

I don't think that the 4211 bag would have been on eBay last week, so the one you saw might still be there.

Interesting re. the rebound ring. So that would probably date it somewhere between 1920-1960s? I can see that that sort of point-specific impact would wear through bags pretty fast; does the ring have any positive or negative effect on the vibration problem?

Also, regarding the diameter of the ring relative to the bag; given the very wide span of the ring relative to most modern speed bag platforms, I'm assuming that the ring was intended to be used either with very large bags or with bags that were hung rather lower than modern speed bags, so that they could reach the ring. Am I on the right track?

Can you recommend any instructional books, etc. on how to train using rebound rings?

Thanks again.

Having used a rebound ring years ago, I would say the punching techniques and combinations are the same used on a standard full surface board - so no special training books or materials due to the ring would be needed. The only difference is making sure you have a bag the correct size, so the belly (fattest part) lines up with the ring, which is the "fixed" rebound surface area. I would say a board, or full surface rebound drum, is "variable" in that the point of bag contact varies on the bag size, rather than the ring size.

and Dutchman, who is a wealth of speed bag history knowledge, is correct that the bags of yester year were pretty huge in comparison to what is offered today. I personally believe the smaller bags came as a reaction to smaller, lighter boards being used. When you see any "old time" pictures of fighters in the 1920's - 1940's, you almost always see a huge board area with a very large bag in comparison to today's more modes, mass produced equipment.

You do have a little piece of speed bag history there.

[Tony]

The boxing set hasn't arrived yet but I've been doing some homework on the rebound ring.

There's an old patent for a speedbag frame supporting a tensioned "net" of perforated fabric where the wooden drum would normally be. The claim was that the net sped up the rebound and eliminated most of the noise; presumably it would also reduce any wear and tear on the bag, if the bag was small enough or hung so as to strike the net rather than the frame.

Tony

[Speedbag]

The boxing set hasn't arrived yet but I've been doing some homework on the rebound ring.

There's an old patent for a speedbag frame supporting a tensioned "net" of perforated fabric where the wooden drum would normally be. The claim was that the net sped up the rebound and eliminated most of the noise; presumably it would also reduce any wear and tear on the bag, if the bag was small enough or hung so as to strike the net rather than the frame.

Tony

you might be referring to the McFadden punching bag platform

This is from an advertisement in a 1904 boxing instruction book:

I zoomed each page up to highlight the detail. the original links are on this page about speed bag history.

I would love to hit on one of thes ancient bad boys. Without the sound of the rebound, I wonder what the experience would be like.

[Tony]

Thanks for the links, but no, the design I was thinking of is a large frame upon which the drum is literally a tightly-stretched net, rather than a wooden board; kind of like a trampoline, if that helps. IIRC the patent was granted in the late 1800s.

Tony

[Tony]

Update

The vintage boxing kit arrived today; three speed bags, including two very large leather bags and one smaller and newer model, a 1920s headguard, nice old skipping rope and a pair of very old gloves that I assume were made for kids.

What had been sold as a speed bag support and what I'd assumed to be a rebound ring turns out to be something completely different; an Everlast "shoulder wheel," designed to be mounted on the wall and turned (like a giant steering wheel) as a shoulder mobility exercise. So, not at all what I'd expected, but still an interesting piece of vintage exercise gear.

Tony

[Dutchman]

Interesting. If you get a chance (and if you can) would it be possible for you to post some pics of your new acquisitions?