Punch drumming at last

[Roc Stone]

Its still very scaty I know but I feel good about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4pcBPUXSZg&feature=user

[ukspeedbag]

Its still very scaty I know but I feel good about it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4pcBPUXSZg&feature=user

Looks good to me. You should feel good about it!

[Roc Stone]

thank you UKSB!

[Biff]

Nice going, RS!

I'm new to this type of punching and haven't practiced much with side punching. You look pretty good. Keep it up.

[toolboxdiver]

Looking great brother, keep up the good work

[Speedbag]

This is actually a great video because of the different angles to really see your arm positions, (left and right) as well as your upper body movements and alignment. It also helps that the camera is right at the level of your shoulder, so it is a straight viewing angle - which really helps to see how your moving. I'll comment on two areas: Your punching skills and Punch Drumming beat.

PUNCHING SKILLS

You appear comfortable working your hands all around the bag and go from one area to any other area at will. Obviously you have learned the "flow" of those movements. I think that bag is an everlast 4200 9x6, so it's a fast bag being hit at medium speed. that could cause control problems but you're handling it all nicely. Good steady rhythm from all around.

from 24sec - 35 sec we can see your movements from behind and you look really solid in form and movement here. Not a lot of waving around and your hands stay pretty much UP, but you drop the left a bit. I don't see the hands going outside the width of your shoulders at all, so you're definitely not making big swing movements (they are speed killers).

36sec - 1:08 We can see your left arm position and movement. It looks fine when you are using it, but you tend to drop this arm a lot and it does effect your control a bit when you try to swing it in from the "low" position. there is nothing wrong with dropping an arm for whatever reason, but try to get it up and in the ready position before it needs to come in. That is easier said than done, but it will help you make cleaner contact.

1:24 - 2:30 This Camera view is really nice. Notice your right arm position is pretty much "roc" solid from the shoulder to elbow. Your making really nice Front Double Punch (FDP), Side Double Punch (SDP), Reverse Double Punch (RDP) transitions, mixed in with single fist linking, both left and right. Nice control. You tend to favor your right arm and rarely drop it, but I notice the left is up and down a lot. again, not a big deal but when the music gets faster up you won't get away with it.

You've still got a little "windshield wiper" shoulder/arm motions on some of your SDP-SDP transitions, but not too bad and not all the time. the arm position for this should be the same as the FDP-RDP. The shoulder to elbow position should not change on this, and it is not necessary to wave side to side. You've got mostly good form on that move.

All in all, you are really progressing skill wise. I'd recommend a little more left hand (it is really supporting your right, which you favor. work the left in a bit more, which will help keep it up. Instead of single (right) fist linking, try some split fist combo's which will force the left to be involved.

Work on a few "odd" count Front Fist Rolls, which you could use a lot in punch drumming. the 3-punch (triple beat)(R-L-R) roll, the 5-punch (R-L-R-L-R) and 7-punch (R-L-R-L-R-L-R) fist roll (notice they all start and stop on the same fist, allowing your right hand to take the lead if you want). These Odd number fist rolls work very well in 4/4 measure music for the beats will time perfectly when you control the roll speed. My purpose here is to get your skill on the rolls up, for they happen quickly in punch drumming. Especially a 3-punch (triple beat) echo of Front Fist Roll-Reverse Fist Roll. Doing these several times front to back, three punches each, (R-L-R ' ' R-L-R ' ' ) is a combo that you can use a lot with music, because that beat pattern is very common in most music.

I didn't see any Elbow Strikes in this clip, and it's not really a big deal, for in punch drumming they would make the same sound as a 3-punch fist roll. But from a skill stand point, I'm sure you could do them.

Great punching demo. I'm really happy with your skills

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

PUNCH DRUMMING:

Matching the Bag beat to the Music.

First off, I'm not a big Hip Hop fan, and haven't really developed a sense of that music. It's a funky beat pattern, usually slower, lots of syncopation with word speaking patterns that don't necessarily adhere to the beat, and the sound of that tends to throw my ear off to whats happening. Musical choice is, of course, a personal matter, and when I evaluate your punching beat (listening to the combo beat to the music) I found it much easier to close my eyes and listen. (when I watch someone, I tend to anticipate the combo's I'm watching, analyzing that versus the sound).

Technically from the "beat" matching, You seem to be "on beat" with the music frequently but not constantly. It is normal to fall off occassionally, and you got right back into it nicely without stopping the bag to start over, so you anticipate the bag and beat very well.

There are two "ways" to punch to music, and they vary depending on the song you are punching to. Regardless of which method you use, the key is to match punches on the bag repeatly with the perceived beat of the music. That will make people hear your bag beat as "synced" to the song. (actually, it will be - just like the drummers beat.)


For this song, IF you want to punch in straight time (basic rhythm) punching, which has almost every beat connect "on the beat" of the music, you would punch a bit faster than you are punching. To punch with syncopated combinations, which has fewer punches actually landing "ON the beat" but certain punches in a combination will "always" land on the beat (to make it match) you would punch slower, which YOU (ROC) are doing to make many of your combo beats match the music. It is hard to envision or "hear" this without a bag to demonstrate that, but when you can hear the bag beat in your head, and know the sounds of all combinations, you can punch to any song in your head as you listen. Then you can also air punch it (which draws a crowd.)

I can write a few combinations for you that will work easily with that song, if you want to try them.

F-Rollx7 ' ' RDP ' ' FDP ' ' RSP ' ' ....repeat.
sound like this. (emphasis beat underlined) DDDDDDD-DD-DD-D
the RSP ( D ) in this combo will always land directy ON the beat to keep you in sync.

as a variation, substitute this below, by Replacing the F-Roll above
with this five punch combo: FDP ' ' RDP ' ' FCP ' '


F-Rollx7 ' ' RDP ' ' FDP ' ' RSP ' ' FDP ' ' RDP ' ' FCP ' ' RDP ' ' FDP ' ' RSP...F-Rollx7 OR replacement combo. They both work.

when you can hear this beat, you will see that the RDP's happen at the same spot in the music beat, so you come in again right on beat after the F-Roll or replacement combo.
If you do the replacement 5-punch combo several times (you can do it for the whole song if you want....) You will also hear that the every other FCP in the replacement
[ FDP ' ' RDP ' ' FCP ' ' ] will also connect ON the beat, just like the RSP. Every other measure, you will hear the FCP or RSP hit ON the beat, so you will be "in time" with the music. the other punches connect in syncopation, around (but not on) the main beat.

this is rhythmically technical, but ROC you do have the ear for it, or you could not have done as well in your video. I don't think You are sure where your combo beat is going next, but you have a sense of making the bag beat sync up in combinations, and it is a great start.

I suggest you try to hit to this song using just the basic rhythm. tap your foot to the music as fast as the music will allow. The song "pulse" is slow, but you can easily tap your foot faster (double time), and you can do the basic rhythm (it's a fairly fast beat), making 8 punches to four beats, or 8 punches to 8 beats. either way, you've gotta punch 8 times per measure, and it is faster than you are hitting here. If you do that, you will hear that you must go slower to find your syncopated beat you are using. This will help you learn to transition from one style to the other.

I hope this doesn't totally confuse you, for it's hard to convey "beat" and combination sounds to words. You have to hear it in your head. but be careful, because it can be addicting and then you can't turn it off. But you do have the sense of rhythm to make it work. Punch on, brother.

[Roc Stone]

Hey Guy's

Thank you very much Alan for the break down analisis, not much gets past you. Your perception is spot on in respects to my lazy left, I did realise that myself having rewatched the clip a couple of times. The bag is a 9x6 but it is a TC not an everlast 4200, having said that i have now purchased a Everlast 4200 online and am waiting for delivery.

At the moment I can only play the radio in my speed bag area (no CD player out there yet) so my knowledge of what music they play is limited, whilst I have heard most of the popular songs/music before, i'm just free hitting to what I feel and more or less making it up as I go along, serendipity can be so sweet. At the moment I 'm just trying to get co-ordinated with the speed bag and music in general without plotting any punch patterns and having to sync it back to the beat. I have found it to be a lot more soothing punching to music, and it also mkes me a lot more relaxed particularly if i'm going to video it.

Hip-hop is not my particular choice of music either, but i have found it, jazz and world music relatively easy to scat along with (za-ba-de-da-do-aa-de-da) using the speed bag. I have selected a song that I want to get down pat with the speed bag, just havn't yet found the tenacity to nut it out all the way. The song is 'Call Me' by Blondie, the song is basic enough and its one we all know, but a this point its the subtle pauses and syncing in with the changes is where i'm struggling.

Another area I'm really struggling with is the reverse fist-roll, I'm actually hoping you might make a shout out demonstration video of it please, placing emphassis on where the bag meets the fist (contact points), the angle of the fists and arms when making contact and the position of the body. I'm always getting caught up on my own fists and end up chipping away at my knuckles and/or the bag deflects at too many different angles. I also find it hard to mach tempo on the R-Roll too, it always sounds faster and i know this is because I don't fully extend my arms past the swivel. I appear to be compensating in the wrong manner. What can I do???

[Speedbag]

Here is a few short clips on that.

Reverse Fist Rolling

Front to Reverse Fist Rolling

I'll find Blondie "Call Me" and punch it up for you.

[Roc Stone]

Thanks Alan, much obliged.

[Speedbag]

I'll find Blondie "Call Me" and punch it up for you.

Here you go, Roc.

Blondi - Call Me

I'll explain some of what I'm doing and why a little later when I have more time.

[speedbag4life]

5:27

Great video! Seems like you're recuperating well. Thanks for recording and posting.

When you write about this later, can you be sure to say what you did there around 5:27? At first I thought it was a double hit, but maybe it's more like two FDPs, switching leads with only one bounce in between. Just curious. Too fast for me to figure it out.

[Speedbag]

Great video! Seems like you're recuperating well. Thanks for recording and posting.

When you write about this later, can you be sure to say what you did there around 5:27? At first I thought it was a double hit, but maybe it's more like two FDPs, switching leads with only one bounce in between. Just curious. Too fast for me to figure it out.

Very perceptive. It happend at 5:26, just before the slight miss, and you are exactly right.

"...two FDPs, switching leads with only one bounce in between"

That is exactly what I did. When I combine two techniques from the same side with ONE rebound instead of THREE, I would call that an "advanced" Front Double Punch combination.

normal = L-R (FDP) ' ' ' R-L (FDP) or L'R ' ' ' R'L

Advanced= L-R (FDP) ' R-L (FDP) or L'R ' R'L

So, notice in the "advanced" you actually have four punches with one rebound in between. But I actually did THREE FDP in the combo, so it looks like this:

L-R(FDP) ' R-L(FDP) ' L-R(FDP) or L'R ' R'L ' L'R

notice that this is SIX punches in a row with one rebound inbetween. I could also do a six punch Front Fist Roll and get the same thing, but with the Fist Roll I cannot accent any of the punches. The volume of each punch will be the same in the Roll. It would sound like this:

d ' d ' d ' d ' d ' d (six punches even)

Changing this to an advanced Front Double Punching combo allows me to add the variation of accenting the second punch for a more rhythmic sound effect. Here is that combination with the accented punches underlined.

L'R ' R'L ' L'R

and sounds like this:

d ' D ' d ' D ' d ' D (three accented punches)

By accenting the second fist in each FDP, which happens automatically, (it's always louder in that technique), you add a little more flavor, or variation, to your own rhythm. A drummer can accent any stroke of a stick, but a punch drummer has to follow the rules of rhythm and sound of the bag. You cannot change the accent patterns of the techniques. If you try to make any one fist in a Fist Roll louder, you must hit harder, but that will change the speed of the bag, and throw your rhythm off. A drummer can control stick speed by squeezing the stick, hitting very hard but keep the stick speed constant. We cannot control the swinging bag speed of every single rebound. We can only vary accents and speed dictating by the rules of speed bag rhythm. And that means changing the accent pattern by using a different punching combo. Therefore, I substitute the advanced FDP for the Fist Roll and get a sound variation.

Listen to that part with your eyes closed and your hear the very slight sound difference. It would be easier to hear if I did six or eight of them in a row, but I rarely make that many without crashing.

You can see and here that several times in this video:
Speedbag_2songs ("take me home" and "everbody dance now")

In the opening sequence without music, I do it at 07-08 secs. then, in song 1 (take me home) at 2:52 and 3:43. I break into that advance FDP sequence from a Front Fist Roll, usually after two or four punches. The Fist Roll establishes the repetitive punching speed needed, than I break into the more complicated alternating fist FDP sequence. Now remember, the first two punches of a Front Fist Roll are actually - a FDP, so it is pretty easy to break out of. It just works out for me that my right fist will always be the "2nd" or accented fist in these sequences, and I will usually end on that fist because it normally connects directly ON a music beat somewhere in the sequence.

You'll hear it again in the second song "Everybody Dance Now" at 7:08

Also in Pendulum at 1:51 (slight miss) then again at 1:54 (just to make sure I do it. (It tics me to miss it so I'll usually quickly repeat a missed combo just to show the bag It will obey....)

I've been focusing a lot of variations of combo sounds to keep it fresh and interesting. It is also technically more difficult to quickly break into the alternating FDP sequence, at the right time in any musical beat pattern. I use this combo almost every song now, where in many of my earlier video's you would rarely see it, mostly because I was more focused on staying in time, which is pretty easy now, and I'm working more on accent variations to "my" beat, and that comes from using the advanced combo's. I will also throw this in occassionally at the end of an Outward-Triple Elbow Strike, because the last two contact surfaces in that technique is really a FDP, and I'll follow with two or three more FDP with one rebound inbetween.

For more study, see The Speed Bag Bible, Chapter 10, page 120 - 122 for this particular combo. If you'll read into chapter 11 "echo rhythms" you will also see I use many of them when punch drumming also.

[speedbag4life]

What a perfect idea, setting up the rhythm with a fist roll. --Or a triple elbow strike. I'll try it!

Thanks, Speedbag, for your helpful and clear explanations. You make me love the bag even more.

[Speedbag]

Here you go, Roc.

Blondi - Call Me

I'll explain some of what I'm doing and why a little later when I have more time.

Punch Drumming is ALL about the bag sound, not how to punch the bag. You can simply punch from the front in Basic Rhythm and hit to any song. But the more you can do on the bag, the more you can manipulate the bag beat to "drum" with the song. Maybe these explanations will help you all understand a little more how this works.

This Song, "Call Me" is very much like a straight basic beat Rock Song, with very little syncopation in the beat or melody line. There are several ways to punch to music. I call them (1) "straight time" or "basic rhythm punching" and (2) "Syncopated Punching Combinations". Many songs can use BOTH methods, and I often change back and forth throughout a song. You have to punch with what the song gives you, and the Basic Rhythm punching method fits best to this song (call me), and is the easiest for most people to "hear" the bag beat with the music. To fully enjoy punching all around in "Basic Punching Style" you have to be able to pass your fists easily through the bag.

Open 1:35 - 2:02: Punching in Basic Rhythm. Feel the beat of the music, tap your foot, punch the bag every time your foot lands. You'll be punching in the basic rhythm with your fists simply landing ON the music beat. Very easy to do to ANY song. You count this as: 1-2-3-4

2:02 - 2:06: Changing sides in Basic Punching. You do this by doing a Double Punch on the side you are going to. If I'm single punching from the front, notice I do a RDP with I change behind. Rhythmically, it makes a "dD" sound with the second fist landing ON the beat, and I continue Single punching with that fist one the beat. I did this x3,

2:06 - 2:08. starting from a RSP, I then go to a FDP-RDP-FDP combo to a F-Roll. This is simply expanding on the point of changing sides with a double punch. I was Reverse Single Punching, so I went to a FDP to move to the front. I don't have to stay there, so I did a double fist pass to RDP to change sides, again, and then did it again, returning to the front. AS long as you Double punch ( FDP ' ' RDP ' ' ....) you can keep changing sides as long as you want, or song beat dictates. You should hear an exit point in the melody or phrase of the song. In short sequence I was changing on the "down beat" or "1" beat of a measure.

2:08: A Front Fist Roll x7. Fist Rolling can normally be done anywhere. It is easy to sync the bag beat of a fist roll to a song, and the beat speed of the song may allow you to vary that speed up or down from straight time, half time or double time.

2:10: Single Punching again, on beat "one" of a measure. You do not have to punch on all four beats of a 4/4 measure. You can break off and punch on different beats such as: 1 or 1&3, or 2&4 for variety.

2:14 - 2:22 I changed sides to RDP, then changed right back to a continuous Front Double Punching Combo x16. I held this combo for a whle to emphasize one key point. You should hear the bag gets louder due to the increase punch force to do that. Here is why that happens. If you single punch ON the beat. Your fist hits on beat 1 of the song. the bag rebounds 3 times, and then your fist hits on beat 2 of the song, which is rebound #4. That simply means, in Basic Rhythm single punching in the triplet rhythm, the bag is making 4 rebounds for two beats of music.

If you double punch, on the beat, like I'm doing here, 16 times, I'm adding lead fist "pick up beat" (1 rebound) on the first Double Punch, and a lead fist "pick up beat" (1 rebound) on the second Double Punch. So, now between two beats of the measure, I have to get 6 rebounds instead of 4.
Basically, when Front Double Punching in time to music, you need 6 rebounds for the second fist to land ON the beat. You will have to punch harder to get these extra rebounds in. Remember, the music pace stays the same. to add extra bag beats, you have to change you punching speed. I am constantly adjusting my punching speed to vary the bag beat to the song.

*Notice now at 2:06 I joined double punches on different sides (double bounce rhythm) and at 2:14 I'm joing double punches on the same side (triplet rhythm). It doesn't matter in this instance, because I'm trying to match the bag beat sound to music, and I'll constantly change from the triplet bag rhythm to the double bounce. I must follow the bags Rules of Rhythm to do that, and the ability to change from one to the other allows you to add variety in you beat. the doule punch combo FDP ' ' RDP doesn't require a change in punching speed (unless I chose to do it at "double time" speed) but the FDP ' ' ' FDP combo does require harder punching to stay on beat. again, the key is landing that second fist of the technique ON the beat.

(just for the record, you could jump the FDP ' ' ' FDP combo to an outward Triple Elbow Striking, keeping that last fist on the beat. then you're adding two more pick up beats for the elbows, and that means 8 rebound in the same span as you were doing 4 or 6. )

2:30: I continously changes sides with double punches, using RDP, SDP, SDP, FDP. I could have done straight FDP-RDP, but you can always go to the sides after a RDP on two rebounds, so I often do this, keeping an easy dD ' ' dD ' ' dD ' ' dD ' ' bag beat. (learn to voice out the rebound "bag beats". It will help you practicing hearing the bag beat in you head.)

2:41 - 2:46: Single fist pass throughs in straight time. When doing simple basic rhythm punching in the triplet rhythm, I'm doing 4 bag beats to 4 music beats. (quater note for you musicians). Here I am doing 8 bag beats to 4 music beats (eighth notes to you musicians). It is "ON" the beat, because punches 2,4,6,8 (the RSP in this example) land at the exact half way point between two main music beats. You have to punch a little faster to get the 8 punches in, but since it's in the double bounce rhythm you don't need to go as much faster as you do for the FDP ' ' ' FDP combo.
You count this as: 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and..
In this example, you will start and end on the same side (front) but You could also start this combo from behind the bag while RSP, or the side, from a SSP. It doesn't matter where you start it from. in this example on exit this on the same side, but when you can vary your bag beat, you can come out of it in lots of places within the combo.

2:47 - 2:50: Simply changing sides again, with Double Punches, coming out on a Front Fist Roll. remember, the first two punches of a F-Roll are a double punch and that follows perfectly for changes sides in this pattern. I just continue to roll after the initial opening Double Punch in the Roll.

3:37-3:42 another FDP ' ' ' FDP extended combo x12 to emphasize the harder punching required. Again, I exit to a Front Fist Roll, using the first two fists of the Roll as a FDP to start the roll.

That pretty much explains everything I did in "Call Me". Read the above several times then watch the song again a few times and you will begin to understand exactly what is happening. Most of the video posting members can certainly do the technical punch skills this takes, for it is pretty basic stuff. The secret is matching your beat speed to the music pace and knowing when to change your punching speed to make it work.

In the second Song, from "lord of the dance" I'm punching mostly in the more complex syncopated combinations style. and that, as they say, is another story.

by the way, I rarely "think about this" when I'm doing it, unless for a purposeful teaching demo, as this was. Normally, I'm just dancing and jammin' to the music I'm hitting to, with my ears and sense of rhythm controlling the whole thing. I don't focus on any technical issues of punching. Pretty soon, you'll do the same.

[Roc Stone]

'Accented Rythms'. Hmm, very interesting...

Howdy Folks.

Firstly appologies for the late response. Alan! Very much obliged for puttin together this vid 'Call Me'.

It was a song I initially selected because of its basic simplicity, but as you honned in on, its the actual keeping the bag timing with the beat of the music is where some difficulties lay. As a result I was using a lot more linking to this song. But what a fantastic base beat you have given us to work from, allowing me to put in my own addaptations; like around 3:10 I may have inserted R(TES) '' R(RSP) '' R(FCP) ' L(FCP) ' R(FCP) '' R(RSP) '', then alternate with the left, repeat, repeat, repeat. Again, still basic rythm punching, with a variation. As you say, not much room for syncopation in this tune.

To be frank, once I got those syncopated patterns I found punch drumming a lot easier, I could be a lot looser, adding a bit more flavour, particuarly with as previously mentioned 'Accented Rythms'. I have done a little bit of punching this weekend gone, and I've been embarking on the alternatives and variation I can get with linking, more so split fist linking, and have developed a real fascination from a particular pattern; R-L(FDP) ''
L(RSP) '' R(FSP) '' R(RSP). Just had to go out to the bag to double check that, and its all good now. I think it may be just another variation of your(Alans) single fist pass through to double punch syncopations, but I think I'm getting a bit more gusto on the swap. You tell me...

Hey well done SpeedBag4Life on picking the advanced FDP combo. I've been lookin at that one for a while now myself.

Well its been a farely hectic weekend. We been comemmorating Anzac Day, which is a day of remmemberance to all our war veterans, lost or fallen. 'Lest We Forget'