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  • Jake
    replied
    Originally posted by Speedbag View Post
    It's not a big deal. You're ears are telling you what you need but this Layman explaination might help.

    the term Music Measure often refers to a Bar of music, which is a segment of time defined as a specific number of beats to create ONE bar. Bar and Measure are often referred to interchangeably.

    Imagine a whole song as a yard stick. We can even name this "The Yard Stick Song". The yard stick is 36 individual inches put together. Musically every each = 1 bar or 1 measure, so the yard stick song has 36 Bars (measures).

    Now look smaller at each inch (measure or Bar) and it can be further divided into smaller parts. Notice that an inch is mainly divided into 4 quarters, the 1/4 mark. There are 4 quarter marks to every inch, and there are 4 beats to a measure/Bar of music in 4/4 time. The first quarter inch mark of each Inch is the main mark, or down beat of that inch (measure).

    Notice on a ruler between two quarter inch marks there is a half way point, these are the 1/8 inch marks, and there are eight of these in every inch. In music these would represent the eight notes. Again, inbetween the eighth inch marks there are smaller marks, the 1/16 point. In every inch (or bar of music) there are 16 of these, and they are 16th notes.

    Now, consider the yard stick can also be subdivided other ways, into 2 parts of 18 inches, or 3 parts of 12 inches each, or 4 parts of 9 inches. (each on of these still has the individual inches, that hasn't changed). In music, we have melody lines or phrases that can range over 4 - 32 measures or bars of music. Since our Yard Stick song only has a total of 36 measures, it will need to be a short melody phrase. Most songs have several yard sticks put together. Imagine 10 yard sticks put together... creating 360 inches..... or a song with 360 bars/measures. Pretty long song, but count the measure in * Inna Gadda Da Vida by Iron Butterfly. [* The drum solo from 6:23 - 9:09 is about 84 measures on it's own ]


    Music Syncopation is a shifting of the accent slightly away from the main or anticipated point, putting it slight ahead or behind the main beat.

    A metronome is just a bland repeating beat, and also refers to the device making it. When you listen to a song and tap your foot on the main beats of the song, your foot could be a "foot metronome" tapping out repetitive beats evenly spaced apart.

    If you're interested, here is a pretty good video series on How Music Works. The four parts on rhythm are especially interesting since we are often laying the bag beat pattern over other sources.

    Very interesting stuff! I never knew there was so much to music. Talking in inches makes it a lot easier for a carpenter like me to understand. I will spend some time going over this stuff. Thanks Alan!

    Leave a comment:


  • Speedbag
    replied
    Originally posted by Jake View Post
    Hey Alan,
    Thank you for all this help! I really appreciate it.

    It's going to take me some time to understand all this. "Measure"," syncopating"," metronomes". I feel like I'm back in math class, lost and falling behind.

    I did take a few piano lessons as a kid, and I played trombone in middle school, but I don't remember anything.

    I do remember the piano teacher telling my mother something like- I had a knack for hitting off beat. I don't know if he was kidding.

    I was looking to challenge my mind and body. I saw a show on PBS that said when you learn new things, there are actual physical changes in the brain. You can actually strengthen parts of the brain. Use it or lose it. So figuring this stuff out will be very good for me.
    It's not a big deal. You're ears are telling you what you need but this Layman explaination might help.

    the term Music Measure often refers to a Bar of music, which is a segment of time defined as a specific number of beats to create ONE bar. Bar and Measure are often referred to interchangeably.

    Imagine a whole song as a yard stick. We can even name this "The Yard Stick Song". The yard stick is 36 individual inches put together. Musically every each = 1 bar or 1 measure, so the yard stick song has 36 Bars (measures).

    Now look smaller at each inch (measure or Bar) and it can be further divided into smaller parts. Notice that an inch is mainly divided into 4 quarters, the 1/4 mark. There are 4 quarter marks to every inch, and there are 4 beats to a measure/Bar of music in 4/4 time. The first quarter inch mark of each Inch is the main mark, or down beat of that inch (measure).

    Notice on a ruler between two quarter inch marks there is a half way point, these are the 1/8 inch marks, and there are eight of these in every inch. In music these would represent the eight notes. Again, inbetween the eighth inch marks there are smaller marks, the 1/16 point. In every inch (or bar of music) there are 16 of these, and they are 16th notes.

    Now, consider the yard stick can also be subdivided other ways, into 2 parts of 18 inches, or 3 parts of 12 inches each, or 4 parts of 9 inches. (each on of these still has the individual inches, that hasn't changed). In music, we have melody lines or phrases that can range over 4 - 32 measures or bars of music. Since our Yard Stick song only has a total of 36 measures, it will need to be a short melody phrase. Most songs have several yard sticks put together. Imagine 10 yard sticks put together... creating 360 inches..... or a song with 360 bars/measures. Pretty long song, but count the measure in * Inna Gadda Da Vida by Iron Butterfly. [* The drum solo from 6:23 - 9:09 is about 84 measures on it's own ]


    Music Syncopation is a shifting of the accent slightly away from the main or anticipated point, putting it slight ahead or behind the main beat.

    A metronome is just a bland repeating beat, and also refers to the device making it. When you listen to a song and tap your foot on the main beats of the song, your foot could be a "foot metronome" tapping out repetitive beats evenly spaced apart.

    If you're interested, here is a pretty good video series on How Music Works. The four parts on rhythm are especially interesting since we are often laying the bag beat pattern over other sources.
    Last edited by Speedbag; 01-07-2012, 08:34 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jake
    replied
    Originally posted by Speedbag View Post
    That explanation with blocks can work for me, but it's easy to see and hear in music. That song is in "4/4 time" so each measure of that song has "4 beats". When you listen without really thinking about it and tap your foot your foot will hit on each main beat. So in each measure your will tap your foot ( or punch the bag) 4 times (these would be quarter notes).

    But the distance (time) between each beat can be divided in half, and then you would have 8 beats in the same span as 4. Now we call those 8th notes (duh) and you can hit 8 times, (however the way you do this on the bag differs..). First, you could hit the 8 punches in 4 beats on the front of the bag, using triplet rebounds. You will hear this as "double time" because you're punching pretty fast now to get the 8 punches to fit in the four beats (instead of 4 punches), and you have to hit hard enough to allow for all the extra unpunched rebounds.
    The second way to get 8 punches in 4 beats is to pass your fist from front to back. If you start from the front on the "down beat" (first beat of the measure) then you pass to RSP and that will be at the halfway point between the first beat and the second. Keep passing the fists through (and due it to match the front punch up "on the beat" and you will have 8 punches in 4 beats of music, and you will hear the punches as being in sync or "in time" with the music. You could count that as 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &.

    [think about this: When you punch 4 times from the front of the bag in 4 beats, the bag has to make 12 rebounds. (remember the unpunched rebounds) and when you punch in double time from the front (8 punches in 4 beats) you will need 24 rebounds. So, to fit 24 rebounds in the same span of times as 12 rebounds, you have to go faster, because the time it takes for the 4 music beats stays the same. Wow, that's a lot of rebounds, BUT the only ones that really count in punch drumming (and the main bag beat you hear) is the punched (accented) rebound. All the other swinging rebounds are important for bag mechanics and add a little flavor to the sound, but they mean nothing as far as timing and hearing your punching as "on the beat" with the song. Due to the mechanics of how the bag works you cannot eliminate them, so you must adjust your force and speed to get them all in.

    Then you can divide the 8 beats in half again and get 16 beats. We call these 16th notes, and on the bag you do this a lot as a fist roll. If you sync up a Fist roll to any song you will find yourself punching in blocks of 8 or 16 punches per measure, for there are no unpunched or swinging rebounds in a fist roll.

    Don't let any of the above confuse you. It is just the written explanation of what your ears are already telling you. If someone has a good sense of rhythm and some bag control they will automatically sync all this up by sound, adjusting punching force and bag speed as needed to stay in time with the song. You have a great sense of rhythming and timing and that is evident by how you're syncopating many combinations in time from around the bag, keeping them all in time. In fact your were doing some pretty advanced beats that I have only heard Brian Tichy do, so that tells also tells me you can advance pretty fast as a punch drummer with a little more understanding of bag mechanics.

    Here's some clear metronomes for timing practice. Some people find them helpful to use and eliminate the issues of Melody etc.

    75 beats per minute

    80 beats per minute

    90 beats per minute

    Different kind of metronome, 80 BPM

    For a little more "funk"...

    96 BPM & Drum

    another thing you can do for fun is use a very repetitive funky beat with a variety of sounds in it, but still allows the BAG beat to become the focus of your session. Here is a good link.

    Old school mix.
    And make a digital loop of the beats from :17 - 1:20, which is about 36 measures of 4/4 rhythm. Notice the heavier base sound on the "down beat" (First beat of measure) and higher snare sound on beats 2 & 4 of the measure. That sound differentiation is really helpful for letting your know where you are in the measure, and the whole thing is pretty similar with a few added sounds here and there for variety but not really a distinct melody line or voices to overlay the beat. I have many repetitive beat loops I used to punch to a lot.

    Here is another style of repetitive beat music with high range sounds that are easy to hear above the bag and no voice melody. (it's a lot faster than the other but you could slow it down in editing software if needed)
    Darude Sandstorm Notice from 0:0 - 1:25, it is pretty much a steady beat, and at 1:18 - 1:25 there is a snare beat that gets faster and faster. A Fist Roll fits great there. from that point on it adds some interesting electronic sounds add a bit of variety and great bag improvision.

    Whoa! I went off on bag tangent there... Anyway, hope some of this helps you.

    Hey Alan,
    Thank you for all this help! I really appreciate it.

    It's going to take me some time to understand all this. "Measure"," syncopating"," metronomes". I feel like I'm back in math class, lost and falling behind.

    I did take a few piano lessons as a kid, and I played trombone in middle school, but I don't remember anything.

    I do remember the piano teacher telling my mother something like- I had a knack for hitting off beat. I don't know if he was kidding.

    I was looking to challenge my mind and body. I saw a show on PBS that said when you learn new things, there are actual physical changes in the brain. You can actually strengthen parts of the brain. Use it or lose it. So figuring this stuff out will be very good for me.

    Hey Novaspeedbagger thanks for the encouraging words. The more I learn, the more fun it gets.

    Leave a comment:


  • novaspeedbagger
    replied
    Way to go Jake!

    Keep the vidz coming! You have an excellent sense of Rhythm with the bag beats that are going on in your head to your advanced combinations that make for your unique style.

    My style is not so original but one of the things that I enjoy is learning from all the different styles of other baggers. And I like that combo that Alan referred to that TommyT was performing in Jersey last summer!

    I can see a ton of potential in the punch drumming area coming from you and a few other baggers on the forum now and I'm excited about that. I am going to have to make more time to watch these vidz more often.

    Keep on punch drummin jake!

    Leave a comment:


  • Speedbag
    replied
    Originally posted by Jake View Post
    Hey Alan,
    "Think about how many parts are hitting the bag in the same amount of beats in the measure. The time span for the technique or combo does NOT change in the music (it remains constant) but if you want to add more fists and rebounds you have to go faster to get them all in. "


    Wow! I get it now. I did what you said and now I understand. I don't know if this makes sense. I started visualizing each beat as a cinder block. All the cinder blocks are lined up in a row. Each one represents 1 strike or beat. You can fit 2 or 3 or 4 etc. strikes into each block, but every time you ad another strike in to a block, you have to speed up all the strikes in that block to fit the new one in. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but I think I get it.

    MsDeville,
    "I, myself, find this addiction to be so medicinal for me — physically, as well as mentally/emotionally. It's better than any drug out there. "

    I totally agree. It's really been life changing for me.
    That explanation with blocks can work for me, but it's easy to see and hear in music. That song is in "4/4 time" so each measure of that song has "4 beats". When you listen without really thinking about it and tap your foot your foot will hit on each main beat. So in each measure your will tap your foot ( or punch the bag) 4 times (these would be quarter notes).

    But the distance (time) between each beat can be divided in half, and then you would have 8 beats in the same span as 4. Now we call those 8th notes (duh) and you can hit 8 times, (however the way you do this on the bag differs..). First, you could hit the 8 punches in 4 beats on the front of the bag, using triplet rebounds. You will hear this as "double time" because you're punching pretty fast now to get the 8 punches to fit in the four beats (instead of 4 punches), and you have to hit hard enough to allow for all the extra unpunched rebounds.
    The second way to get 8 punches in 4 beats is to pass your fist from front to back. If you start from the front on the "down beat" (first beat of the measure) then you pass to RSP and that will be at the halfway point between the first beat and the second. Keep passing the fists through (and due it to match the front punch up "on the beat" and you will have 8 punches in 4 beats of music, and you will hear the punches as being in sync or "in time" with the music. You could count that as 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &.

    [think about this: When you punch 4 times from the front of the bag in 4 beats, the bag has to make 12 rebounds. (remember the unpunched rebounds) and when you punch in double time from the front (8 punches in 4 beats) you will need 24 rebounds. So, to fit 24 rebounds in the same span of times as 12 rebounds, you have to go faster, because the time it takes for the 4 music beats stays the same. Wow, that's a lot of rebounds, BUT the only ones that really count in punch drumming (and the main bag beat you hear) is the punched (accented) rebound. All the other swinging rebounds are important for bag mechanics and add a little flavor to the sound, but they mean nothing as far as timing and hearing your punching as "on the beat" with the song. Due to the mechanics of how the bag works you cannot eliminate them, so you must adjust your force and speed to get them all in.

    Then you can divide the 8 beats in half again and get 16 beats. We call these 16th notes, and on the bag you do this a lot as a fist roll. If you sync up a Fist roll to any song you will find yourself punching in blocks of 8 or 16 punches per measure, for there are no unpunched or swinging rebounds in a fist roll.

    Don't let any of the above confuse you. It is just the written explanation of what your ears are already telling you. If someone has a good sense of rhythm and some bag control they will automatically sync all this up by sound, adjusting punching force and bag speed as needed to stay in time with the song. You have a great sense of rhythming and timing and that is evident by how you're syncopating many combinations in time from around the bag, keeping them all in time. In fact your were doing some pretty advanced beats that I have only heard Brian Tichy do, so that tells also tells me you can advance pretty fast as a punch drummer with a little more understanding of bag mechanics.

    Here's some clear metronomes for timing practice. Some people find them helpful to use and eliminate the issues of Melody etc.

    75 beats per minute

    80 beats per minute

    90 beats per minute

    Different kind of metronome, 80 BPM

    For a little more "funk"...

    96 BPM & Drum

    another thing you can do for fun is use a very repetitive funky beat with a variety of sounds in it, but still allows the BAG beat to become the focus of your session. Here is a good link.

    Old school mix.
    And make a digital loop of the beats from :17 - 1:20, which is about 36 measures of 4/4 rhythm. Notice the heavier base sound on the "down beat" (First beat of measure) and higher snare sound on beats 2 & 4 of the measure. That sound differentiation is really helpful for letting your know where you are in the measure, and the whole thing is pretty similar with a few added sounds here and there for variety but not really a distinct melody line or voices to overlay the beat. I have many repetitive beat loops I used to punch to a lot.

    Here is another style of repetitive beat music with high range sounds that are easy to hear above the bag and no voice melody. (it's a lot faster than the other but you could slow it down in editing software if needed)
    Darude Sandstorm Notice from 0:0 - 1:25, it is pretty much a steady beat, and at 1:18 - 1:25 there is a snare beat that gets faster and faster. A Fist Roll fits great there. from that point on it adds some interesting electronic sounds add a bit of variety and great bag improvision.

    Whoa! I went off on bag tangent there... Anyway, hope some of this helps you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jake
    replied
    Hey Alan,
    "Think about how many parts are hitting the bag in the same amount of beats in the measure. The time span for the technique or combo does NOT change in the music (it remains constant) but if you want to add more fists and rebounds you have to go faster to get them all in. "


    Wow! I think I get it now. I don't know if this makes sense. I started visualizing each beat as a cinder block. All the cinder blocks are lined up in a row. Each one represents 1 strike or beat. You can fit 2 or 3 or 4 etc. strikes into each block, but every time you ad another strike in to a block, you have to speed up all the strikes in that block to fit the new one in. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but I think I get it.


    MsDeville,
    "I, myself, find this addiction to be so medicinal for me — physically, as well as mentally/emotionally. It's better than any drug out there. "

    I totally agree. It's really been life changing for me.
    Last edited by Jake; 01-07-2012, 11:11 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MsDeville
    replied
    Originally posted by Jake View Post
    Thanks for the notes Alan. That's very helpful.

    ...I like the way you break everything down. This again was a first take. I wasn't thinking about what I was going to do. Just plugging along doing whatever felt right.
    First takes. Always the best. ... If you're like me, I know when I'm 'feeling it' and usually set up the camera right away, hang the bag, hit for a few minutes to whatever is on the ipod, then crank up the song I'm feeling at the moment, and go. Mistakes and all.

    Originally posted by Jake View Post
    O-I 4Way strikes have always been my favorite. My goal is to be able to do them non-stop, one side to the other. A continuous rip?
    Ditto that! I usually have to go to my bigger bag for those because I have to do them a little slower, I think, in order to be continuous. (My BFF speed ball works the best, but is out of commission. Time to get a new one, I guess.)



    Originally posted by Jake View Post
    In the beginning I always fought to slow down my RDP. I always wanted to naturally rip that back. Now I just enjoy doing it.
    You do those very well. I have trouble with those, and can't do too many in a row. Partly because I think I try to rush it. And, my fists tend to run in to each other after a while when rotating the fists over one another. So, I usually just alternate reverse punches from behind without actually rotating my fists – . I hope I'm making sense. Anyway, really smooth.

    Oh, and that move at around 1:05 I think. That's the combo that I think Brian was describing to us right after SB I and he posted a YT vid from NJ. I think he referred to it as a reverse phantom punch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqED8...WyPxs6mYvvHNzn



    Oh, and I really like that song. Reminds me of the 90's music, or whenever the so-called grunge/alternative bands were making great music.

    You've got the gift, I must say. I, myself, find this addiction to be so medicinal for me — physically, as well as mentally/emotionally. It's better than any drug out there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Speedbag
    replied
    Originally posted by Jake View Post
    Thanks for the notes Alan. That's very helpful.

    I didn't know Brian Tichey drummed for all those people. He's living the dream!

    I like the beat and feel of Blurry. I thought it was called Far Away at first.

    I like the way you break everything down. This again was a first take. I wasn't thinking about what I was going to do. Just plugging along doing whatever felt right.

    O-I 4Way strikes have always been my favorite. My goal is to be able to do them non-stop, one side to the other. A continuous rip?

    I'm glad you picked up on the double elbows. Looking back at the video I wished I had thrown in more. Lately I struggle with that double time FDP RDP SDP SDP, but I was practicing last night and had it going pretty good. I need to work on blending that in with the basic beat.

    In the beginning I always fought to slow down my RDP. I always wanted to naturally rip that back. Now I just enjoy doing it.

    The beat of this song works well for my skill level. I'm trying to keep up with some favorite Chilli Pepper songs. Not there yet.
    There are several baggers that can rip the O-&-I 4Way's nonstop on 3 and 1 rebounds inbetween. For punch drumming the key is the sound it makes, and if you mix them with only 1 rebound inbetween it sounds pretty much like 8 punch fist roll.

    For instance, Your double bump elbow essentially creates the sound sound of a triple elbow, however the accent is just a bit different.

    Say you do an Outward-Triple Elbow Strike (O-TES). The accent of that technique is the first two contacts are pretty much equal the the third surface (second fist) is normally accented just a bit louder. But if you make an Outward-Double Elbow Strike (O-DES) into what I call a hybrid triple by double bumping the elbow, the first elbow may be a bit louder, for the "bump" rebound has no force applied. the bag simplied rebounds into the elbow which is held still momentarily, and I hear the "bumped" rebound as a bit softer, and makes a subtle change in the accent of the three beats together.

    Basically the O-TES tiple would sound like: d-d-D
    and the double bump elbow triple would sound like: d-d-D



    just a tiche different but it may add a little sound variety along with the technique variation.

    I might suggest that some of those 4-way elbow strikes were throwing you a bit off beat a bit and I think it is because you completed them a bit too slow. Think about how many parts are hitting the bag in the same amount of beats in the measure. The time span for the technique or combo does NOT change in the music (it remains constant) but if you want to add more fists and rebounds you have to go faster to get them all in. for instance, you have to punch a bit faster or harder to do a 4-way elbow then a triple elbow because you've added another part into the mix but the amount of time to add it has not changed.

    Practice this: for a few measures of the song, punching on the beat, just do Front Double Punch combos (FDP) ' ' ' (FDP)....repeat x4 or more
    Then do the same with Outward-Triple Elbow Strikes: (O-TES) ' ' ' (O-TES)....repeat x4 (note how much faster you need to move to get the extra two parts in). Now do the same with Four Way Elbows: I would use Out-&-Down but you can use Out & In if you want. either way:

    (O-D 4Way) ' ' ' (O-D 4way)..... repeat x4.

    Do the above with the last part of each technique landing ON the beat pulse of the song, and you will quickly see how much faster/harder you must punch to get all the parts of the four way techniques to hit in comparision to the Front Double Punches.
    And the other trick is bleeding all that extra bag speed/power off when you want to return to a slower bag speed immediately, by dead handing it a bit.

    Hope this makes sense.
    Last edited by Speedbag; 01-06-2012, 03:12 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jake
    replied
    Thanks for the notes Alan. That's very helpful.

    I didn't know Brian Tichey drummed for all those people. He's living the dream!

    I like the beat and feel of Blurry. I thought it was called Far Away at first.

    I like the way you break everything down. This again was a first take. I wasn't thinking about what I was going to do. Just plugging along doing whatever felt right.

    O-I 4Way strikes have always been my favorite. My goal is to be able to do them non-stop, one side to the other. A continuous rip?

    I'm glad you picked up on the double elbows. Looking back at the video I wished I had thrown in more. Lately I struggle with that double time FDP RDP SDP SDP, but I was practicing last night and had it going pretty good. I need to work on blending that in with the basic beat.

    In the beginning I always fought to slow down my RDP. I always wanted to naturally rip that back. Now I just enjoy doing it.

    The beat of this song works well for my skill level. I'm trying to keep up with some favorite Chilli Pepper songs. Not there yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • Speedbag
    replied
    Originally posted by Jake View Post


    This is one of my favorite punch drumming songs.
    That is a very cool song. Blurry by Puddle Of Mudd That I have never heard before.

    This is an interesting video for your Bag Beat reminds me a bit of Brian Tichy (drummer for Ozzie, Billy Idol, Foreigner, Whitesnake...et al) and how he throws in some amazing speed bag beat variety when punch drumming by starting and ending combinations on different beats of the measure creating bag accents in different patterns.

    You also do sort of an original "shadow" move that I have only seen Speedy Tommy T work on at the last speed bag gathering, doing a Side Single Punch (SSP) under [shadow] the other arm. Tommy T was working it off a Side-Triple Elbow Strike (S-TES) and having the lead fist come back in with a SSP and go under the raised forearm of the second fist. YOU do it off the Out-&-In Four Way Elbow Strike (O-I 4Way) by having the lead fist come back in from the side after the last elbow hits and then pass the fist under that arm. Very slick looking move.

    Some notes below:

    1:04 You come out of a Front Fist Roll to a Downward Triple ES, Reverse Single Punch to an O-I 4Way (LL-RR) and than come back with a Left-Side Single Punch Shadowed under the Right forearm.

    You do it several times. 1:07, 1:34.....

    2:01-2:03 Double Bumping Elbows

    2:32 - 2:46 Double Time (hunting for right speed.... )

    I also like the way you add in the Reverse Double Punch (RDP) with kind of a quick double time D-D sound in there. you do that a lot.

    I really like this song also. I hear the bag beat in my head to it and I hear a lot of bag speed variation changing from Straight time to syncopated punching, as well as jumps to double time in both methods.

    Great song and your bag skills are equally impressive!

    Leave a comment:


  • Jake
    started a topic Far Away

    Far Away



    This is one of my favorite punch drumming songs.
    Last edited by Jake; 01-05-2012, 07:54 PM.
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