Any Major Dude

[Speedbag]

I need to keep my mind on work as much as possible today, but I just want to quickly say-
Allen your break down of the 4-ways is very helpful.

I picked this song because it had a good beat for doing these 4-ways with 1 bounce.
When I speed up these strikes, I think I end up with an extra little bump on the elbow, before I can get the outward strike in. I'm not sure if that extra bump hits the board. Maybe lightly. This gives a beat like 1234-1234-1234 Where as when I slow it down I can keep a steady beat 123456789......

Extra bumps are hard to account for. If your inward moving elbow hits the bag, making light contact, and you keep moving the elbow forward a bit with force, it could be possible you hit the bag again withing that rebound BEFORE it hit the board. That would be one explanation. I have seen that happen but very rarely does a double hit within the same rebound happen. It almost always occurs on a very weak or missed hit, when the bag doesn't make it to the board before it dies and comes back down.

The other possibility is your are double bumping that Inward Elbow. Think about it, If your Inward elbow makes good solid contact, and you hold it at that position, the bag will hit the board and come back down into the elbow again. That Would be the classic double bump. I noticed you did that easily with an outward elbow and also a downward elbow. Yeah, I saw that. nice move.

I have been trying to figure out exactly what is going on with the pause between 1234 when I speed up the 4-way strike. There must be an extra bounce during that pause. I'm thinking it's just a light quiet bump. I don't think I did any of these faster 4-ways in this last video.

there probably is, and that is why you occasionally do that combination on TWO rebounds. that "extra bounce" was the second rebound.

Ya know I was just thinking- When you hit that outward elbow after the inward, does the bag has to travel further? Then any of the last 4 strikes, to the other side of the board. This would explain why it's extra work to keep a steady 123456789... beat.

I could talk about this stuff all day, but.....

The quick answer would be "no the bag doesn't travel further" because on the hanging bag, the distance from the belly to the board is the same in any direction,

But in actuality, I think you are correct. In my opinion there could be slight variations to the exact distance the bag travels to the board after any single individual contact, and that would depend on two factors, (1) at what point in the rebound you make contact and (2) the direction the bag is going to go after that strike.

Consider #1, the point of the rebound. Once the bag hits the board if swings downward, passes a center point and then swings upward to the other side. Where your hit it in that distance, and the angle the bag is within that rebound could slightly vary the distance it has to go to the board for its next contact.

Consider a Front First Roll (F-Roll). Normally you will lean in and the next rolling fist will hit the bag about half way between the board and the straight position under the swivel. But if you don't lean in, and make contact when the bag is actually straight under the swivel, perhaps 1/4 or 1/2 of an inch further away from the board when your next fist hits, the bag will have to travel just a smidge further to get back to the board. It is not uncommon to see beginners contact point "wander around" within the rebound angle, and this reveals itself in slight mis-hits, when the fist arrives just a bit early and slips off the bag or arrives a bit late hitting underneath the belly or the classic "swivel jammed" upward clang. That is due to where the bag was contacted within the rebound. Beginners, actually most of us, will sense the mis-hit and slightly adjust fist speed or punch force to compensate for the error your eyes or ears tell you just happened.

Consider #2, the direction the bag is going on the next strike.

Again, consider Front Fist Rolling (F-Roll). If your are going to change direction of the next strike, say do any of the three Reverse Punches, then your forward rolling fist hits the bag, which now travels the full rebound arc, hits the board in front and travels back down before you hit it again. That was a much further distance than it travelled between punches in the Front Fist Roll.

Now for your issue specifically, about an OUTWARD elbow contact after an inward Elbow contact making the bag swing a bit further, I believe that would depend on the angle the bag travelled after the inward elbow (it could vary depending on where on the bag the inward elbow made contact. that always affects the rebound angle) and that will also affect the angle the bag travels downward after it hits the board. So, now the bag is coming off the board, and the distance it has to travel after your Outward elbow connects will again depend on what point you make contact in that downward rebound arc. I notice this varies with some people who can pull it off. Normally the bag is pretty straight under the swivel when the returning outward elbow hit, and this will send the bag more to the side of the board. But you can also have your outward Elbow contact the bag a bit late in that rebound, when the bag is slightly past straight and now angled a bit upward already. At this point, if you hold a moment, the bag will make a second rebound off the front of the board, and your INWARD - OUTWARD will happen on Two rebounds. But if the bag has slightly passed the center and is angled upward and your outwardly moving elbow makes contact, (after that one rebound..) then the bag angle from this contact will not really be to the side of the board, but more towards the "front-side" of the board. the distance it has to travel from one angle or the other may vary a bit. We're talking very small distances here, but those differences will show up and reveal themselves by how people adjust "the next strike", because you can't call the last one you made back. It's gone.

But the fact that you are noticing that within your own punching shows great insight into what's happening with your own punching style. Everybody has their own.

I could talk about this stuff all day, but.....

Word, my bag brother.

[Jake]

Allen I just noticed I speed up with 2, 4-way out and ins, at 1:58

It's between those two strikes that I wonder about. I'm trying to understand what's happing at that point.

It can't be the bag rebounding twice, because the bag can't get past the elbow to the front of the board. So there must be some kind of bump or something going on between 4-ways when speeding up?

[G-Town]

Work on!

Jake -Nice elbow work with a twist of my man "Tommy T" and a host of others. Enjoy watching good work. Bag on!

[Speedbag]

Jake -Nice elbow work with a twist of my man "Tommy T" and a host of others. Enjoy watching good work. Bag on!

Aha! my man "G" noticed that Tommy T side punch shadow...

[deano]

4 way elbows

Killing it Jake thought it was a early days clip of an unmasked EBOZYN plenty of natural talent there mate very impressive. Just touching on Alans comment of the one rebound, I looked at the clip and noticed the double bump on the inward elbow and the two rebounds before the contact on the outward elbow. I would be keen to see the slow mo of the one rebound between the inward and outward elbows. Take it easy deano

[fedora]

After about 2 hours straight of trying to get the inward elbow strike and coming back with the outward elbow strike without the 3 rebounds I was actually able to start getting it once out of every maybe 6 times. Then I did the left side into the right side and did it back and forth for about 3 times and I'm thinking "Hey I did it" and then "Puff" it was gone.
Maybe after a week or so of working on it every day I might be able to put it together on occasion. You have to be dead on every strike or it jumbles up. But I think I'm starting to see what to do, now if I can just get my body to obey. Following the instructions on this thread has been a huge help. I never would have figured this one out on my own. Thanks Alan.

fedora

[Speedbag]

Allen I just noticed I speed up with 2, 4-way out and ins, at 1:58

It's between those two strikes that I wonder about. I'm trying to understand what's happing at that point.

It can't be the bag rebounding twice, because the bag can't get past the elbow to the front of the board. So there must be some kind of bump or something going on between 4-ways when speeding up?

You are correct. At 1:58 in your video, when you do two 4-way (O-I-4way) elbow strikes, the bag only makes one rebound. (the sequence where the bag made two rebounds was at 1:33).

After watching the segment of punching from about 156 - 1:59 many times, and making picture captures, I noticed a very slight "miss hit" that is not apparent unless you still the frames. (see pic below. I eliminated the other bag behind you in a couple of pics for clarity). White arrows depict bag direction.

It appears in frames 1-4 that you made the first O-I 4way fine, (R-R \ L-L), frame 5 is the single rebound, an frames 6-9 is the returning O-I 4way
(L-L \ R-R), but after watching this a bunch of times and making many captures, it always appears that the initial outward elbow contact of the Left arm missed slightly and the bag actually contacted the forearm point of the arm, not the rear portion. I would interpret that to mean the outward point of the elbow was just a bit early in that rebound. the bag never really arrives late in it's own rebound, so the contact surface arrived a bit early, and the bag hit just a bit foreward on front part of the elbow. NO biggee, it didn't effect the combination, its really just a teaching point of how that can happen in the more advanced combinations. When that happens to me, about half the time in this combo, I find the bag slipping up my forearm toward the fist, or maybe it my forearm sliding down the face of the bag due to a weak contact, but either way I rarely recover from it successfully. In your video it was a non-issue because it's almost impossible to see in real time and it did not effect your punching.

What is also amazing is the time sequence on the frame captures. All nine of this pictures take place at exactly 1:58. Thats a lot of rebounds in ONE SECOND.

[Jake]

Thanks Allen!
I think this explains why sometimes that outward elbow feels more like a push than a sharp strike.

[Speedbag]

Thanks Allen!
I think this explains why sometimes that outward elbow feels more like a push than a sharp strike.

Very well could be, or feel like a "double bump" off the inward elbow.

[Jake]

Oh I see what you're saying now. The bag actually hits the board 9 times. So there is an extra bump in there.
It's great to be able to see a photo of each individual strike!

[Speedbag]

Oh I see what you're saying now. The bag actually hits the board 9 times. So there is an extra bump in there.
It's great to be able to see a photo of each individual strike!

yes it helps. Just got to know what frames to capture.

[fedora]

This has been a great teaching thread on doing the 4 way without the triple rebound in between sides. I've watched Jakes video over and over and seeing how he brings the fist sharply inward and up close to his face just after the IES was a real clue to me on how to get this. As soon as I started trying to implement that I was able to do a few rotations. And as already mentioned hitting the bag right at the elbow and not at the forearm made a big difference on my ability to keep the combo going. I'm still shaky on doing it consistantly and at will, but I am able to do it some now. I'm working on coming off a double downward elbow and going into this starting with a front double punch inward elbow. For some reason right now I find it easier to go into it from this rather than just starting with the double outside elbow.

I also noticed that it's easier for me to nail this with a heavier bag with a good rebound. I see Jake is using the Lazer which has both. Mine is a little too small for my skill level but the 9x6 Ringside Heritage seems to work best for me right now.

fedora

[Zaza]

This has been a great teaching thread on doing the 4 way without the triple rebound in between sides. I've watched Jakes video over and over and seeing how he brings the fist sharply inward and up close to his face just after the IES was a real clue to me on how to get this. As soon as I started trying to implement that I was able to do a few rotations. And as already mentioned hitting the bag right at the elbow and not at the forearm made a big difference on my ability to keep the combo going. I'm still shaky on doing it consistantly and at will, but I am able to do it some now. I'm working on coming off a double downward elbow and going into this starting with a front double punch inward elbow. For some reason right now I find it easier to go into it from this rather than just starting with the double outside elbow.

I also noticed that it's easier for me to nail this with a heavier bag with a good rebound. I see Jake is using the Lazer which has both. Mine is a little too small for my skill level but the 9x6 Ringside Heritage seems to work best for me right now.

fedora

Please post some video, you're a quick learner and I can't seem to get this...would love to see and something might click.

[fedora]

Please post some video, you're a quick learner and I can't seem to get this...would love to see and something might click.

Well not really, if I was a quick learner I'd be doing this as good as Jake. But I am getting the movement from side to side for about 3 to 4 rotations before it crashes. And that's not every time I try it. Everybody has that "Ahah!" moment when you hit it for the first time. If you watch Jake, he really brings that fist in sharply up to the side of his head before he immediately comes back with the outside elbow. When I finally did that I had that "Ahah" moment. It dawned on me that was important so you can get that immediate rebound off the back of the elbow going in the right direction. If I'm seeing it right and please correct me if I'm not, but in Jakes video it looks like the bag is alternating on the board going from about 2 o clock and 10 oclock. In watching where my bag hits when I nailing it, it's hitting in about the same places. If I don't bring my elbow and fist sharply in and up by my head the way Jake does I can't get the right angle on the bag to hit at those places and I miss hit every time. Now it's just a matter of training my body to hit that position every time. This is what helped me at least start to get it. Sorry, I am unable to post a video, but Jakes is really good and better than anything I could do anyway. On top of that he's a lot better looking than I am.

fedora

[Speedbag]

I'm working on coming off a double downward elbow and going into this starting with a front double punch inward elbow. For some reason right now I find it easier to go into it from this rather than just starting with the double outside elbow.

fedora

Fedora, I'm going to use what you said to point out something, you may already know, but this is a good thread to include this. You mentioned you are going to the Out-&-In 4way Elbow Strike (O-I 4way) from (after) doing a "double downward elbow", which I assume is the Downward-Double Elbow Strike (D-DES), and then "going into this with a Front Double Punch + Inward Elbow", which really turns out to be the Inward-Triple Elbow Strike (I-TES), f/f-e. The difference is just semantics of course, but I'm writing it for you as I would write it in Speed Bag Bible Speak, or If I saw you do it. That is posted in a graphic I made for you on the left. I also included how you could actually advance the D-DES of combo 1 to the D-TES in combo 2 by adding the other fist (Right - underlined in blue) in front of the downward double movement, making it a fist-elbow-fist connection with one rebound in between the three parts (f/e-f). And then how either of this can be followed by the O-I 4 way.

Notice also in Combo 1 and Combo 2, the connection here really double bumps the left fist. So, what fist position do you use for that "second bump"?...hmmm. another choice me thinks.


This may also help you understand how I arrived at writing the more complex techniques. The O-I 4way is by far the most complex technique because it has NINE other techniques within it. The graphic on the right shows you all of those. In the book you will notice that the four way elbow strikes come after you have learned all the other techniques, and their contact on the bag should already be familiar to the reader. Of course a lot of folks can just walk up to the bag and do it without knowing all of these, but to truly understand what it is an how it is created can often let you see how you can break it down.

Lastly, this technique also bring up the often subtle differences, and importance of - Fist position. Notice in the "second fist" that lands (3rd of 4 parts) connects the bag in Front Straight Punch (FSP) position. That is the natural contact position in this technique because of the body angle and swing movement. I introduce that in the section of book about the Front Double Punch (FDP), that the second fist may land in either front circle punch (FCP) or FSP position, and there is a difference. In the FDP you almost always have a choice with position to use. But you will notice in the chapter on Inward Elbow Strikes, the Inward-Double Elbow Strike (I-DES) and the Inward-Triple Elbow Strike (I-TES) always use the FSP fist connect position. Especially in the I-TES, which as you say leads with a FDP before the inward elbow hits. Try making that second fist connect the bag in FCP position and see how much more difficult that I-TES becomes. Most likely the fist will just slide off the face of the bag or send the rebound off in an awkward angle. The moral of that story is that within the inward elbows and the O-I 4way, that second fist will connect in FSP position.

Hope this helps you understand a bit more about this amazing technique. I can tell you this, honestly, the possibilities of its use, and my understanding of it have skyrocketed in the past few years as I have watched other speed baggers demonstrate incredible skill and control off that inward elbow connection. I really overlooked that for years and that is why you don't see any demonstrations of me doing it like jake, or skunk or Juxt or Tim, or ebo....ad five or six more here. I need to go practice.....